Jumping Roof of Depot to CP - instant death

[diskobo]

The prices of surgery in northern France might suprise you!

So how about a dedicated medic class that can patch you up, if you get hurt?

[howard2]

I am utterly opposed to the changes, and to many previous changes that have been made with respects to infantry play.

I put them all into the category of fixes for stuff that just isn't a problem.

I was a run/prone player and getting that message that the movement is not allowed just pisses me off. Now you have disabled firing in certain circumstances for SMG, after you borked the LMGs. That was ridiculous, the Bren gun has a handle which enable firing from the hip on the run. And then theirs John Basilone. 

Then we had the situation of not being able to get down the blown fire stairs without an injury. That was before this latest patch. 

Overall their seems to be this ongoing campaign to take the fun out of infantry play, for the sake of a tyranny, which i will call the "pursuit of reality".

It is such a misplaced concept. I believe it is insulting to those that have fought to even mention reality in respect to a game. Reality meant people dying in terrible ways. It is just a game, where the primary focus should be on fun. The desperate defence of caps, which included the leaping from depots, was fun, now to be expunged.

Honestly, concentrate on real problems. ATG handling. I'm amazed that we still have not fixed the joke handling of the french 25mm, the 2pdr digging in its nose if you push it any distance. The crazy behaviour of ATG's if you try to deploy near objects. It just leads to frustration, and reduction in FUN.

Another pet peeve is the simulated vibration in aircraft. Why? To make it more "realistic"? Its just unpleasant, gives me eye strain.  Why, when you are trying to attract people to a game, are you making an experience unpleasant?

Rant over. I understand you are working hard, and much if it is driven by the player base, i just have a different perspective.

 

[diskobo]

Hard to argue with that ... But as a casual player of WWII, let me try.

If I recall correctly, there were times when infantry could climb trees and shoot off them back in the day. I think it was fun, but does anybody misses that?

I am not sure why this change was introduced - if it was to mitigate jumping off the spawns for some reason - then specify the reason.

If it was ment to target jumping off regular buildings, that is a different story. The ninja jumping off the regular buildings should not be there. My opinion.

The only relevant question is, how will this impact the spawn camping. If that would be a big deal, then how about a protective spawn delay before you get damaged?

[TheMouse]

3 hours ago, tater said:

I hate camping as well. I agree completely, but as long as the depot is a spawn castle, it is 100% designed to be camped. Why should tanks get to camp, but not rifles?

ehh?    you completely agree,  but  lets have more units able two camp?????

 

3 hours ago, tater said:

Again, as the towns get reworked, perhaps the norm could in fact be closer to:

rework first so that it dosn't become easyer to camp...it's not rocket science 

 

 

[tater]

14 minutes ago, TheMouse said:

ehh?  you completely agree,  but  lets make it easier and  have more units able too camp????

The entire game is literally "camping online."

It is the one, universal gameplay. Making infantry not literally fly is hardly a draconian change. I get killed instantly spawning at an FMS a % of the time. They could have made that not a thing, but it's encouraged.

My only current issue is that it's set a little too harsh, as merely walking off an undamaged fire escape causes damage. Any "grunt" level of impact causes damage.

A better solution is not magical flying infantry, but actually addressing the spawn castle issue in the first place.

The depot building in general is goofy, what is it supposed to be? ALL buildings should have a function—a floorplan—that makes sense. Yes, this building was commandeered by the military, but what is it? Why are the rooms bizarre? Redo the Depot so it's a real looking building. Surround it on a couple sides or more with close buildings to screen it. Disallow enemy shooting downstairs inside.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by tater

[TheMouse]

14 minutes ago, tater said:

T/he entire game is literally "camping online."

 

 

so lets increase the camp-ability , seriously????

because getting out the spawn is so much  a big issue ????

the funny thing is......in intermission  people are always complaining  about capping the spawn...as it stops the fun...think about that for a bit!!!

Edited April 17, 2021 by TheMouse

[dewars]

Quote

The depot building in general is goofy, what is it supposed to be? ALL buildings should have a function—a floorplan—that makes sense. Yes, this building was commandeered by the military, but what is it? Why are the rooms bizarre? Redo the Depot so it's a real looking building. Surround it on a couple sides or more with close buildings to screen it. Disallow enemy shooting downstairs inside.

Well, of course, it's 2 floors of hallways on top of a garage.

It is an odd building. I don't think it should be capable of being destroyed now. That gaping 2nd floor hole is worthless if you can't really jump out of it.

 

My first choice would be to make a completely different structure, one without a huge hole (in destroyed state) that everyone must pass in order to exit...

 

[tater]

1 hour ago, TheMouse said:

so lets increase the camp-ability , seriously????

Can I have a supersonic broomstick I can fly on? That would decrease camping!

[TheMouse]

35 minutes ago, tater said:

Can I have a supersonic broomstick I can fly on? That would decrease camping!

who fly's ?   i know its a good sound byte  but!  

you need to figure out which is more important to you....getting out of a spawn point or camping it ????

#edit...not you, crs....

Edited April 18, 2021 by TheMouse

[goreblimey]

Seems a little too heavy handed. Jumping from the garage catwalk to the garage inside the spawn should NOT cause damage, remember our toons have no climb/clamber hang and drop mechanism. Redesign the spawn or pull this damage until you do. 

[TheMouse]

11 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

Seems a little too heavy handed. Jumping from the garage catwalk to the garage inside the spawn should NOT cause damage, remember our toons have no climb/clamber hang and drop mechanism. Redesign the spawn or pull this damage until you do. 

as does the fire escape

and all this because some people are stupid enough to go upstairs when capping...... LOL

Edited April 18, 2021 by TheMouse

[tater]

I said at the outset, it needs to be toned down.

Who flies? People who run off the depot roof, and land on the CP roof.

I used to do it plenty, because I could. That doesn't make it any less stupid.

I think there could be 2 different types of fall damage, perhaps. Both that we already have.

Type 1: What we have as paras when we hit the ground. Sprint wiped out, if you stand you slow walk.

Type 2: Fall damage that hits health.

The type 2 can be tuned up so that dropping off the balcony in the garage, etc does minor Type 1 (kills sprint for a few seconds), running off the roof to land on the CP does Type 2.

Some height might do para level type 1, past that you take type 2.

Edited April 18, 2021 by tater

[hillstorm]

2 hours ago, goreblimey said:

Seems a little too heavy handed. Jumping from the garage catwalk to the garage inside the spawn should NOT cause damage, remember our toons have no climb/clamber hang and drop mechanism. Redesign the spawn or pull this damage until you do. 

I agree with this 

[tater]

The more I think oif my idea, the more I like it.

Some drop just impacts sprint. The goal is not to KILL or even wound the player, the goal is to disincentivize the insane Matrix parkour. So have fall damage above some value kill you, but at lower heights have it clobber the sprint bar. Sometimes down to zero so you have to lay there and recover.

It's not just the flying that's dumb, it's the leap/flying followed by dashing off at a sprint.

[delems]

That is a good idea.

Either follow up with the idea above or

Tone down the damage when you jump... maybe raise the height limit 1 m  or so for jumping and injury.

[xanthus]

15 hours ago, tater said:

The entire game is literally "camping online."

It is the one, universal gameplay. Making infantry not literally fly is hardly a draconian change. I get killed instantly spawning at an FMS a % of the time. They could have made that not a thing, but it's encouraged.

My only current issue is that it's set a little too harsh, as merely walking off an undamaged fire escape causes damage. Any "grunt" level of impact causes damage.

A better solution is not magical flying infantry, but actually addressing the spawn castle issue in the first place.

The depot building in general is goofy, what is it supposed to be? ALL buildings should have a function—a floorplan—that makes sense. Yes, this building was commandeered by the military, but what is it? Why are the rooms bizarre? Redo the Depot so it's a real looking building. Surround it on a couple sides or more with close buildings to screen it. Disallow enemy shooting downstairs inside.

 

 

So well said.

You just nailed two things I've always hated about this game (and that the old and new rats have always seemed blind to):

1) gameplay ultimately centers around who can camp who first (a problem online PvP games have generally fixed over a decade ago).

2) gameplay-focused structures like the depot building, cp/flag building, even the AB are so ridiculously artificial, like playground fixtures. Again, this is primitive caveman type stuff that other online games figured out many years ago. As a result, WWIIOL feels like a big airsoft arena, and definitely NOT an actual battleground. Even arcade-style cartoon cocaine simulators like Battlefield 1 at least don't have gamey structures like this that serve no purpose in the built environment.

[raptor34]

Testing the jumping height yesterday I found that I could drop from the drop of the oil tanks and only take very minor damage, but granted I never tested it at a run. If you step off a height carefully it seems the fall damage is lessened, which I think is both realistic and good for gameplay. If there is a need to adjust the fall damage so that it isn't quite as sensitive to minor falls ok, but for sure I like the idea of falls of most any height taking all of the players stamina so they they cannot just run away after making a jump. 

Honestly, this is small change overall but I really like it - nothing brought me out of the game experience more than the depot jumping infantry. I know there are concerns by some players due to years of playing with the old system but I really do think it is a step in the right direction regarding realism and preventing crazy solo EI movements on the battlefield. 

[TR6AL]

The amount of damage you receive when jumping is adjustable and will be toned down . Jumping from 3 stories and not getting hurt just isn't right . Not my area but it will get sorted . 

 

[pfmosquito]

As someone who has jumped from buildings as much of the next guy, I wanted to weigh in since we apparently get another bite at the apple.  (question:  was this issue even vetted, or just thrown in?)

I thought the points above were good, even the ones I disagree with.

First of all, I don't object to the idea that you should get hurt if you fall from a certain height.  But this already happens.  As someone who has fallen from the church many times, I can attest to that.  Perhaps it can be argued that people should be MORE hurt, but it (if I must be frank) kinda sounds a bit like sour grapes--that is, some people are annoyed that other players can perform pretty darn good even when they've been severely injured.

My personal philosophy about game play mechanics, especially in this game, are twofold:  1., adhering to reality is better than not and 2., whenever sacrifices are to be made on that score there should be offset compensations.

In this case, there are some pretty serious problems with adhering to reality:  1., it has made depot camping 2-3x more effective.  A tanker does not even need to raise his turret to do his dirty deed.  If this change is implemented, we're going to see many attacks brought to an end more quickly than we've seen them brought to an end before.  2., it has 'smoothed' out the game such that it is more one dimensional... that is, it has stifled the kind of creativity that makes the game entertaining.  Yea, I can see why some people don't like the idea that someone can jump on the CP and shoot them through the windows (then again, why aren't they watching the windows?).  On the other hand, what is more entertaining?  ALWAYS knowing your threat is coming up the stairs, and NEVER from any other direction?  Is it going to be more 'fun' to ALWAYS know that infantry are going to be entering the theater at ground level?

It is precisely the fact that players find ways to surprise me that makes the game entertaining.  If they were always doing the same thing over and over again... and this change definitely does narrow the options... that is a fun killer.

To me the answer is that the necessary offsets need to be introduced BEFORE making this change.  For example, more ladders and other 'legitimate' ways to move about should be introduced.  Ropes?  As a player's load out, not just as a feature of the building?  Could there be an animation so that if you jumped from parachute height you were forced to do a 'roll' and then could play on?  I'm just throwing ideas out here, with the idea of illustrating what it means to balance changes out.  It is a game, but it is one that wants to 'simulate' reality, which is cool... but it is a game.  Hard coding out options for player problem solving can only 'work' if new options are made available.

The law of unintended consequences holds true both virtually and IRL.

[tater]

99% of the troublesome jumping is the leap from the Depot.

As for the "surprise" of people coming from the sky? We have people who come from the sky. They have parachutes. Sans that? People don't come from the sky (with the exception of ragdoll).

 

[pfmosquito]

Yea, I think you exaggerate that, but that's not my point.  If you take it away without adding back other options, you will flatten the game.  We'll go from poker to "go fish."  That isn't an improvement just because we can pat ourselves on the back because one aspect has been brought more into line with reality.  There are other things within reality that are available that we don't have (let's start with the idea of being able to JUMP at all).  Or, if you wanted to be able to peer into a window and you were too short, your buddy could give you a lift, or you could slide a box over, or take a running leap and pull yourself up, use a grappling hook to hoist yourself, use a ladder, etc, etc, etc.  I can go on.  Should I?  Should I go through and start itemizing the 1,000 things you could do in real life to exit a building in a pinch or simply navigate the terrain which is not possible int he game?  Because you know I could.  You could as well.  We all could. 

And this is my point.

It isn't like the roof jumping thing is the only 'unrealistic' thing in the game, whereas everything else perfectly simulates reality.  There are oodles of other things that are 'unrealistic' as well, including capabilities that a real soldier would have in order to solve problems.  Roof jumping being possible creates a couple of problems--primarily just to our sense of immersion--but solves others.  Taking it away soothes our sense of immersion but leaves us with NO other way to solve those problems being added back.

This is the crux of the issue.  I don't want to go so far as to say that taking away roof jumping without adding something back would ruin the game, but I'd bet money that the game will take a real hit.  People will pay to play poker.  Not so much "go fish." 

[goreblimey]

The annoying thing about roof jumpers , at least for me , is that they are silent.

[pfmosquito]

I hear that.

I was actually thinking just last week that it would be nice to hear grenades thudding when they land inside a room.

[jwilly]

Pretty much everyone here hates being camped. No one has mentioned equally hating being the camper.

Anyway, camping is the core element of gameplay. It's how you win. It hasn't been "replaced" here because the entire tactical game is designed around it. Obviously gameplay changes like the jump-injury ones being discussed were instituted to maintain the ability to camp, and therefore to win.

A game has to have a clearly defined way to win, with no good way to defeat that win-mechanic once it's implemented.

I think fixed spawn points are dumb, and obviously they lead to camping. But that's a discussion that's about 21 years too late.

 

[Poker]

Fine with toning down the unrealistic nature of some movements. Does this mean that I will also be able to step over or climb objects?