[CRITICAL] Rounds disappearing

[undercova]

3h vs. Matty

https://i.imgur.com/y06Spcm.mp4

As you can see whenever i "should" hit the main gun the rounds just disappear / dont register at target. Before i recorded the video it happened 10x in a row. As soon as you shoot an unimportant part of the tank the rounds work fine and the impact sprites show up.

This happens to all kind of weapons/calibers.

As i experienced over the last few 1-2 years this happens extremely often when you have an overkill like Tiger vs. Vickers. You shoot the Vickers and almost all rounds just disappear/dont register at target. When you have very close combat fights between tanks and both shoot each other but nothing happens except rounds disappear magically having no effect on target at all.

 

This leads to the idea that the calculation gets aborted when a critical component fail or kill is about to happen. Does the combat log show anything ? Errors ? Missing log entries ?

(Could also link to the "self-healing" planes where smoke suddenly disappears. Or even the problem with shooting infantry and they still run around because the critical shot never registered)

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by undercova

[B2K]

9 minutes ago, undercova said:

3h vs. Matty

https://i.imgur.com/y06Spcm.mp4

As you can see whenever i "should" hit the main gun the rounds just disappear / dont register at target. Before i recorded the video it happened 10x in a row. As soon as you shoot an unimportant part of the tank the rounds work fine and the impact sprites show up.

This happens to all kind of weapons/calibers.

As i experienced over the last few 1-2 years this happens extremely often when you have an overkill like Tiger vs. Vickers. You shoot the Vickers and almost all rounds just disappear/dont register at target. When you have very close combat fights between tanks and both shoot each other but nothing happens except rounds disappear magically having no effect on target at all.

 

This leads to the idea that the calculation gets aborted when a critical component fail or kill is about to happen. Does the combat log show anything ? Errors ? Missing log entries ?

(Could also link to the "self-healing" planes where smoke suddenly disappears. Or even the problem with shooting infantry and they still run around because the critical shot never registered)

 

What damage was being noted on the receiving vehicle?

[saffroli]

Just dings/bounce audio like getting hit by a grenade.

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[undercova]

It could also explain the same stuff happening with planes.

Pilots report no effect on EA when they pound many rounds into them ... or AAs hitting EA numerous times showing no effect

Edited July 28, 2021 by undercova

[B2K]

1 hour ago, undercova said:

It could also explain the same stuff happening with planes.

Pilots report no effect on EA when they pound many rounds into them ... or AAs hitting EA numerous times showing no effect

Or it's just a broken hit sprite (since there was still audio of the impacts I would lean this direction), which only effects visibility, but does not impact damage. 

[OLDZEKE]

Ricochets are not displaying a graphic, the anti tank rockets though do show sparks on a ricochet. IDK why some or most rounds don't show that feedback on ricochet.

[saffroli]

So when I'm hit on side like this, I hear a traditional bounce sound, those shots are visible. The ones that aren't visible [that would be a CRITICAL component damage] I hear only an equivilent to grenade/rifle plink, only with the "shell shock" effect to go with it. This doesn't seem right to me.

And we see this all the time with kill shots on shermans, stuarts and when you use something like Tiger VS Vicky, which almost any angle/hit will be a critical kill, it usually takes 5-8 shots on a Vicky with Tiger before they die and the same "disappearing" shell is seen there too. Well if damage isn't affected be these then Vicky would die on first shot or second shot, not shot 8.

TL;DR Vicky takes longest to kill when it should be the easiest, it also is No.1 Candidate for soaking visual hit data when shooting it. It can't be a coincidence.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[undercova]

so when i shoot a 88mm AP round into a Vickers at 100m into his flank ... it should create ricochets ???? lol

no sorry. that cant be. ive seen 3 Tigers shooting 1 Vickers for like 30 secs ... and he kept driving ... turning turret ... turning tank ... shooting .. no smoke. one of those Tigers were me and 90% and more of my rounds just disappeared. was the same for the other Tiger commanders

Edited July 28, 2021 by undercova

[undercova]

or you are in perfect flanking position ... good range to target ... flat plate 90° ... you shoot ... nothing. round disappears. where you can say as an experienced that this shot is normally a guaranteed kill

[OLDZEKE]

33 minutes ago, undercova said:

so when i shoot a 88mm AP round into a Vickers at 100m into his flank ... it should create ricochets ???? lol

no sorry. that cant be. ive seen 3 Tigers shooting 1 Vickers for like 30 secs ... and he kept driving ... turning turret ... turning tank ... shooting .. no smoke. one of those Tigers were me and 90% and more of my rounds just disappeared. was the same for the other Tiger commanders

I do not believe that is what I said. My reply was to the video 3h vrs matty. Most german AP ammo is AP with a HE component. He part is fused. 88 vrs vickers the round would be inside or possibly if not hitting anything inside of any thickness it could go clean through and out the other side before the fuse triggered.

[undercova]

28 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I do not believe that is what I said. My reply was to the video 3h vrs matty. Most german AP ammo is AP with a HE component. He part is fused. 88 vrs vickers the round would be inside or possibly if not hitting anything inside of any thickness it could go clean through and out the other side before the fuse triggered.

but when you shoot into turret (side) or into engine of a Vickers ... it should for sure kill the gunner / engine. but it doesnt. the whole shot gets reduced from a 100% armor penetration to a bounce plus no visual effect for it

[saffroli]

34 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I do not believe that is what I said. My reply was to the video 3h vrs matty. Most german AP ammo is AP with a HE component. He part is fused. 88 vrs vickers the round would be inside or possibly if not hitting anything inside of any thickness it could go clean through and out the other side before the fuse triggered.

I don't think you understand the point being made here.

Not only should a 2pdr barrel be able to be disabled by a 50mm shell at point blank rage no less [which didn't happen at any point during the test shown in the video and before and after said video] but the synonymy withstands, when engaging a Vickers with Tiger, only to receive the same "bullet soak" and subsequent inability to kill something with categorically should be disintegrated at the first shell impact. It's hard to believe the lack of a visual que along with the unrealistic inability to disable/kill something as coincidence, when both examples are clear cut examples of when something SHOULD be affected in a big way by the projectile.

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[Capco]

4 hours ago, undercova said:

As i experienced over the last few 1-2 years this happens extremely often when you have an overkill like Tiger vs. Vickers. You shoot the Vickers and almost all rounds just disappear/dont register at target. When you have very close combat fights between tanks and both shoot each other but nothing happens except rounds disappear magically having no effect on target at all.

I don't tank as much as you do but even I recall things like this happening after the ammo audit was completed.  I'm pretty sure that's when it started, and I think that's in line with your own timeline.  

[OLDZEKE]

As I think I mentioned above? Some of the rounds are not displaying non penetrations of ricochets. I don't yet know the reason, I'm trying to get a list of all that do and all that don't before creating a ticket. Need who ever looks in the code to have working and non working hit decal comparisons. 

I've went through the ammo files and all data I have access to and can't find a difference. To me that suggests it's in the code I don't have access too.

As to not killing when the round passes though the vehicle before the fuse finishes. Spall killed the turret crew in the 2nd half of this vid, shrap killed the 2 inf behind the vickers when the fuse finished.    

 

 

[saffroli]

The difference is, in this case the hit sprite was visible and relative damage was delivered.


As Undercova's video shows, it doesn't *always* happen. But when they do, its usually when it should be a critical hit.

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[OLDZEKE]

19 minutes ago, saffroli said:

I don't think you understand the point being made here.

Not only should a 2pdr barrel be able to be disabled by a 50mm shell [which didn't happen at any point during the test shown in the video] but the synonymy with engaging a Vickers with Tiger, only to receive the same "bullet soak" and subsequent inability to kill something with categorically should be disintegrated at the first shell impact. It's hard to believe the lack of a visual que along with the unrealistic inability to disable/kill something as coincidence when both examples are clear cut examples of when something SHOULD be affected.

I understood what he said in his OP  "As you can see whenever i "should" hit the main gun the rounds just disappear / dont register at target. Before i recorded the video it happened 10x in a row. As soon as you shoot an unimportant part of the tank the rounds work fine and the impact sprites show up."

I replied that for some reason I've not yet found that some rounds do not display a graphic/decal with a ricochet. 

He then changed it  "but when you shoot into turret (side) or into engine of a Vickers ... it should for sure kill the gunner / engine. but it doesnt. the whole shot gets reduced from a 100% armor penetration to a bounce plus no visual effect for it"

The vid I posted shows the result of a 88 round vrs a vickers turret. 

Now I will agree that for some reason in both cases there is not proper feed back for the shooter. The ammo aduit . I don't think, is the issue as there are ap rounds with a HE component that show explosion, penetration hole and the silver "scratchmark" of a ricochet. I've compared that ammo against the 5cm pz3h ammo and other than the values that are different because they are different rounds as to weight velosity etc they are structured the same. So when I get a full list of the ammo that does and does not give feed back I'll ticket it to be assigned to who ever needs look at it.

[OLDZEKE]

9 minutes ago, saffroli said:

The difference is, in this case the hit sprite was visible and relative damage was delivered.


As Undercova's video shows, it doesn't *always* happen. But when they do, its usually when it should be a critical hit.

I replicated his vid with a logging client. Every "disappearing" round in my test was a ricochet.

[saffroli]

2 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I replicated his vid with a logging client. Every "disappearing" round in my test was a ricochet.

So how can any hit with an 88 on a Vickers be a ricochet when its landing on side of turret/centre of mass kind of deal?


I mean you take a BB gun on a piece of cardboard, you'd have to be at a pretty severe if not parallel angle to get a ricochet. 

Often these vacant hit sprites are seen at values way less than 120degrees of deflection angle.
 

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[undercova]

5 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

I understood what he said in his OP  "As you can see whenever i "should" hit the main gun the rounds just disappear / dont register at target. Before i recorded the video it happened 10x in a row. As soon as you shoot an unimportant part of the tank the rounds work fine and the impact sprites show up."

I replied that for some reason I've not yet found that some rounds do not display a graphic/decal with a ricochet. 

He then changed it  "but when you shoot into turret (side) or into engine of a Vickers ... it should for sure kill the gunner / engine. but it doesnt. the whole shot gets reduced from a 100% armor penetration to a bounce plus no visual effect for it"

The vid I posted shows the result of a 88 round vrs a vickers turret. 

Now I will agree that for some reason in both cases there is not proper feed back for the shooter. The ammo aduit . I don't think, is the issue as there are ap rounds with a HE component that show explosion, penetration hole and the silver "scratchmark" of a ricochet. I've compared that ammo against the 5cm pz3h ammo and other than the values that are different because they are different rounds as to weight velosity etc they are structured the same. So when I get a full list of the ammo that does and does not give feed back I'll ticket it to be assigned to who ever needs look at it.

i am not saying that you ALWAYS have it happening when shooting a Vickers into side with Tiger AP. will test later on Training Server with Saffroli to see if we can trigger it frequently

[OLDZEKE]

My last post on this. I'm pretty sure I've been pretty accessible when it comes to replying to threads about concerns as to bugs.

1 minute ago, saffroli said:

So how can any hit with an 88 on a Vickers be a ricochet when its landing on side of turret/centre of mass kind of deal?

 

Lokk at the vid. It was a straight through penetration, thats why the 2 guys behind caught shrap. The round went clean through the turret and our befire the fuse exploded the round. Vickers is thin armor, it barely sloes a 88 round.

 

[saffroli]

4 minutes ago, OLDZEKE said:

My last post on this. I'm pretty sure I've been pretty accessible when it comes to replying to threads about concerns as to bugs.

Lokk at the vid. It was a straight through penetration, thats why the 2 guys behind caught shrap. The round went clean through the turret and our befire the fuse exploded the round. Vickers is thin armor, it barely sloes a 88 round.

 

Yea but that's not a ricochet is it?

I'm asking what kind of conditions you would have to be under to ricochet an 88mm shell from a what, less than 20mm plate thickness?

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by saffroli

[OLDZEKE]

I would like to think I've been pretty accessible as to answering questions or explaining issues to the best of my ability.

But I really don't enjoy being told I don't understand.

You might just possibly be amazed if you knew just what I am able to understand.

But I am under a NDA, I can't always answer in-depth. I do the best that I can to answer within what I feel are my bounds. 

So I've answered best I can, I've provided vid. 

This is my last post in this thread.

[undercova]

 

[saffroli]

It has nothing to do with data and everything to do with not understanding a point being made. Anyone can do it, doesn't matter your IQ or knowledge on a subject.

I'm not questioning your knowledge, I'm asking you a question.

[jwilly]

4 hours ago, OLDZEKE said:

Every "disappearing" round in my test was a ricochet.

1. Often players become upset when they perceive that the game is not behaving correctly or "fairly", i.e. it seems to them that their rounds are ineffective but the enemy's rounds work just fine.

2. Inadequate visual feedback as to what happens to one's AP and APHE rounds at the target end can result in player misunderstandings.

3. Ricochets can happen without any visual indication.

4. Ricochets with a tracer still burning used to be displayed. After that (quite amazing at night !!) visual effect was coded, it was disabled because it involved too much calculation-workload for the much slower processors of that many-years-ago time.

5. If that code still exists, re-enabling it would provide beneficial visual feedback to players.

Edited July 29, 2021 by jwilly