[CRITICAL] Rounds disappearing

[undercova]

17 hours ago, Capco said:

I don't tank as much as you do but even I recall things like this happening after the ammo audit was completed.  I'm pretty sure that's when it started, and I think that's in line with your own timeline.  

correct

was about that time when the "strange" things started to happen. since then i know that i need for most ET kills like the double or more amount of rounds because the rounds disappear and do not grant a critical hit on target

[saffroli]

13 hours ago, jwilly said:

Stuff

 

You're the smartest guy in the room, got it

You don't think the majority of people can formulate reasonable opinions under the knowledge that most of the time they only see things from one side on the campaign?

That's what the training server is for, and you better believe me and a certain Undercova are making use of the training server regularly to confirm or refute our initial impressions.

You think you're one of the only few that ever thought to test something on training server or what?

What's posted in the video is not a ricochet, its a through pass, not only that but the hit sprite is visible and does nothing to disprove anything we've brought up in this thread.


The statement in return has been "there is no hit sprite for a ricochet, therefore, everytime you see a round get soaked up, it is a ricochet" which I don't believe at all, since a few of the shots in the original video on the extreme sides of the turret would have been ricochets but the hit sprite still triggered?

Hence why the Vickers example is brought into question. 
Hitting a Vickers whether it goes through or not will never in a million years ever be a ricochet unless the angle of deflection is basically 179 on the DOT, and we're talking about side impacts, well within what would be considered perpendicular not just on Vicky but other tanks, Sherman, Stuart etc. I have way too many times hit a flame spot on a tank only for the round to get soaked up, shooting a flame spot at 90 degrees should never be a ricochet, the round either penetrates, or it gets stopped dead [relatively speaking].


So my conclusion is that either the shots don't register on critical component damage and are wrongly calculated as a ricochet, or that the shots are just randomly not registering at all and just so happens to be noticed more on sure-fire kill spots since that's when a player [yes, including myself @jwilly you're not the only one who can be self aware of such things  ] is going to be most concerned.

 

 

[atgman]

This is nothing new, I remember this thread:

 

[Kidd27]

40 minutes ago, saffroli said:

You're the smartest guy in the room, got it

You don't think the majority of people can formulate reasonable opinions under the knowledge that most of the time they only see things from one side on the campaign?

That's what the training server is for, and you better believe me and a certain Undercova are making use of the training server regularly to confirm or refute our initial impressions.

You think you're one of the only few that ever thought to test something on training server or what?

What's posted in the video is not a ricochet, its a through pass, not only that but the hit sprite is visible and does nothing to disprove anything we've brought up in this thread.


The statement in return has been "there is no hit sprite for a ricochet, therefore, everytime you see a round get soaked up, it is a ricochet" which I don't believe at all, since a few of the shots in the original video on the extreme sides of the turret would have been ricochets but the hit sprite still triggered?

Hence why the Vickers example is brought into question. 
Hitting a Vickers whether it goes through or not will never in a million years ever be a ricochet unless the angle of deflection is basically 179 on the DOT, and we're talking about side impacts, well within what would be considered perpendicular not just on Vicky but other tanks, Sherman, Stuart etc. I have way too many times hit a flame spot on a tank only for the round to get soaked up, shooting a flame spot at 90 degrees should never be a ricochet, the round either penetrates, or it gets stopped dead [relatively speaking].


So my conclusion is that either the shots don't register on critical component damage and are wrongly calculated as a ricochet, or that the shots are just randomly not registering at all and just so happens to be noticed more on sure-fire kill spots since that's when a player [yes, including myself @jwilly you're not the only one who can be self aware of such things  ] is going to be most concerned.

 

 

I think it was answered reasonably.

light skinned vehicles like the vickers or the 232 have rounds passing clean through,

ricochets are not always showing the visual, maybe its specific to an ammo or caliber but not necessarily side specific.

Both account for description observed. 

 

[jwilly]

11 minutes ago, Kidd27 said:

light skinned vehicles like the vickers or the 232 have rounds passing clean through,

Except realistically, this is what should happen when a way-overpenetrating round "passes through" a vickers or 232:

Even if that extreme degree of damage cannot be visually depicted, it's very very clear that that was a one shot kill. No survivors inside that vehicle, no further forward movement, no gunfire.

[saffroli]

Nobody is

44 minutes ago, Kidd27 said:

 

light skinned vehicles like the vickers or the 232 have rounds passing clean through,

ricochets are not always showing the visual, maybe its specific to an ammo or caliber but not necessarily side specific.

 

 

Nobody has said a round passing through is not possible. - I cannot stress this enough....

A round passing through is NOT a ricochet.

So how can an 88 possible "ricochet" off of a Vickers?


So when people have noticed Vickers being one of the prime examples of "round soaking" specifically from the 88, it clearly leans towards an issue of a different kind since the chances of a ricochet of an 88mm gun vs Vickers are quite absolutely the smallest chance of any possible armour engagement in the game.

Maybe even both are concurrently true. That some rounds are not visible because of ricochet and some are not visible because of a bug when causing critical damage.

Edited July 29, 2021 by saffroli

[undercova]

3h vs. S76

3h shooting at main gun

https://i.imgur.com/pq4j40Z.mp4

1st shot => disappeared for 3h / simple hit for S76

2nd shot => looked fine for 3h / penetration hit for S76

3rd shot => looked fine for 3h / penetration hit for S76

4th shot => disappeared for 3h / simple hit for S76

[delems]

Don't forget, I have got this with both patrol boat and destroyer.

As I get close to enemy ship, rounds just go right through / disappear with no indication of hit/effect.

Once further away, hits register again.

Main gun on destroyer and 47mm on patrol boat.

Edited July 30, 2021 by delems

[undercova]

yesterday I had a shootout with a Stuart in my 232 at 200m. he shot multiple times at me and most of the rounds went just poofffff. like in the video I posted ... no penetration ... just dings like rifle hits. I guess he had mostly disappearing rounds while shooting my tin can

a bit later on there was a big LW show at Bavay where allies spawned many Bofors at FB. I got hit a few times in my 110 FB during several sorties ... and most of these hits were like the one described above. no penetration audio ... no damage ... just a ding

 

 

[jwilly]

27 minutes ago, undercova said:

yesterday I had a shootout with a Stuart in my 232 at 200m. he shot multiple times at me and most of the rounds went just poofffff.

Not to doubt whether there's a problem...but do you know for a fact that he was shooting AP?

[undercova]

5 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Not to doubt whether there's a problem...but do you know for a fact that he was shooting AP?

he was shooting another tank before me near town ... and why should he switch to HE then ?? he aimed for my turret all the time. killed my commander and later on all others (with penetration sound then)

Edited July 30, 2021 by undercova

[TREVOR8]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:00 PM, OLDZEKE said:

My last post on this. I'm pretty sure I've been pretty accessible when it comes to replying to threads about concerns as to bugs.

Lokk at the vid. It was a straight through penetration, thats why the 2 guys behind caught shrap. The round went clean through the turret and our befire the fuse exploded the round. Vickers is thin armor, it barely sloes a 88 round.

 

With the HE audit does that mean 88 rounds AP will just punch through and 88 HE shrapnel wont penetrate? 

[jwilly]

Scotsman of course would be authoritative on this, but my recollection is that German APHE fuzes would actuate with the amount of deceleration occurring due to penetration of 5 to 7mm of armor, i.e. about a quarter inch.

The time (i.e. flight distance) for fuze actuation certainly didn't depend on how much deceleration had occurred, except in the sense that if the armor was thick enough the shell velocity would be decreased. Fuzes of this type are either actuated or not. Once the fuze actuated, the time to the detonation was determined by the internal fuze spring mechanism. The deceleration didn't provide energy for the operation of the fuze, once the actuation mechanism was tripped.

And, armor-penetration deceleration wasn't cumulative. An APHE shell passing through 4mm of armor might not be tripped; a second passage through another 4mm of armor would be an entirely separate event, not an addition to the first passage.

Something is wrong with an APHE shell function-model if the shell actuates so slowly after penetration of the first armor-face that the shell has time to continue through a second armor-face, then a few meters further, then finally explodes well beyond the target.

[david060]

On 7/28/2021 at 1:54 PM, undercova said:

This happens to all kind of weapons/calibers.

As i experienced over the last few 1-2 years this happens extremely often when you have an overkill like Tiger vs. Vickers. You shoot the Vickers and almost all rounds just disappear/dont register at target. When you have very close combat fights between tanks and both shoot each other but nothing happens except rounds disappear magically having no effect on target at all.

This leads to the idea that the calculation gets aborted when a critical component fail or kill is about to happen. Does the combat log show anything ? Errors ? Missing log entries ?

You are not crazy. This has happened for awhile although video evidence is sparse and it is commonly dismissed for whatever reasons. 

In the video below I shot a panhard from the direct front center with a pak 36, the projectile "disappeared" and if you look closely the impact sprite didn't initiate until somewhere in the rear of the vehicle, well behind the point of entry. Since the panhard starts back up, drives around and opens fire it means that somehow both the driver and gunner were missed by the path of the projectile, and that the 37mm did not disable the engine either despite apparently causing a coolant leak.

The only way something like this happens is if (like you said) the game simply isn't accepting or rendering the path of a projectile when it intersects a critical component. Driver, gunner, engine are all critical hits. Radiator not a critical, but it's the thing that is damaged. Thin armor preventing any spalling is irrelevant because the solid 37mm projectile alone should kill the crew and disable the engine if it hits them directly. Anyway this has been an issue for a long time:

 

[TREVOR8]

30 minutes ago, david060 said:

You are not crazy. This has happened for awhile although video evidence is sparse and it is commonly dismissed for whatever reasons. 

In the video below I shot a panhard from the direct front center with a pak 36, the projectile "disappeared" and if you look closely the impact sprite didn't initiate until somewhere in the rear of the vehicle, well behind the point of entry. Since the panhard starts back up, drives around and opens fire it means that somehow both the driver and gunner were missed by the path of the projectile, and that the 37mm did not disable the engine either despite apparently causing a coolant leak.

The only way something like this happens is if (like you said) the game simply isn't accepting or rendering the path of a projectile when it intersects a critical component. Driver, gunner, engine are all critical hits. Radiator not a critical, but it's the thing that is damaged. Thin armor preventing any spalling is irrelevant because the solid 37mm projectile alone should kill the crew and disable the engine if it hits them directly. Anyway this has been an issue for a long time:

 

Nice shot and yeah that should have basically sucked the crew out the hole in the back. 

[choad]

Dude. Rounds seemingly disappearing happens to all tanks and atgs from my experience. Not a matty or 3h thing. 

[Dre21]

On 8/1/2021 at 10:57 PM, choad said:

Dude. Rounds seemingly disappearing happens to all tanks and atgs from my experience. Not a matty or 3h thing. 

True , but it's a huge morale hit when you wait and are being patiend for that kill shot just to see your round dissappear with no effect and said target turns and one shot kills you from the front .

And as Axis have to be at a certain range more often then not or at the right angle due to Allied sloping armor I think you can understand why so many Axis Tankers turned their back to the game if one waits for the right shot just to lose the engagement after one fires the 1st shot .

[undercova]

On 7/31/2021 at 11:42 AM, david060 said:

You are not crazy. This has happened for awhile although video evidence is sparse and it is commonly dismissed for whatever reasons. 

In the video below I shot a panhard from the direct front center with a pak 36, the projectile "disappeared" and if you look closely the impact sprite didn't initiate until somewhere in the rear of the vehicle, well behind the point of entry. Since the panhard starts back up, drives around and opens fire it means that somehow both the driver and gunner were missed by the path of the projectile, and that the 37mm did not disable the engine either despite apparently causing a coolant leak.

The only way something like this happens is if (like you said) the game simply isn't accepting or rendering the path of a projectile when it intersects a critical component. Driver, gunner, engine are all critical hits. Radiator not a critical, but it's the thing that is damaged. Thin armor preventing any spalling is irrelevant because the solid 37mm projectile alone should kill the crew and disable the engine if it hits them directly. Anyway this has been an issue for a long time:

 

that 1st shot was a true hit. you can see the explosion inside the tank .. at the back of turret or most likely engine area because of the instant white smoke coming from its engine. this is NOT what i am talking about in this thread. your round didnt disappear because it penetrated the frontal armor fine

[saffroli]

On 8/2/2021 at 4:57 AM, choad said:

Dude. Rounds seemingly disappearing happens to all tanks and atgs from my experience. Not a matty or 3h thing. 

No it isn't. But that was the example used because it could be replicated and recorded.

[undercova]

just at DOUAI ... with Tiger in perfect flanking spot. I have S76 in sight ... 90° angle at 1.5k range. Aiming for engine area / sap spot area. All shots disappeared although it was a perfect hit and ranged in perfectly. S76 turns turret and kills me with 1-2 hits frontally.

So please dont say this doesnt happen or barely happens. i just had 10 shots in a row all disappear. there was nothing that bounced

[undercova]

GMC tried to place a fru just 500m N of me too ...  i shot him with HE rounds. pounded like 6-7 rounds into him. at least 4 rounds disappeared too. no explosion on target or behind him. they just got soaked up

[undercova]

in a DD at Knokke AF

Allied players spawned in some Shermans ... multiple rounds of my main gun just disappeared when they "hit" the Shermans. about 50% of the hits just never happened

[Nick]

Having played this game for many years, killed hundreds and hundreds of tanks and been a volunteer coder for CRS I think this puts me in a good position when I agree with the OP. There is something strange happening with anti-tank rounds. 

I'd say that at least 50% of my shots aren't registering, I don't know why but I do know that  it is frustrating. 

 

[Capco]

On 7/31/2021 at 5:42 AM, david060 said:

You are not crazy. This has happened for awhile although video evidence is sparse and it is commonly dismissed for whatever reasons. 

In the video below I shot a panhard from the direct front center with a pak 36, the projectile "disappeared" and if you look closely the impact sprite didn't initiate until somewhere in the rear of the vehicle, well behind the point of entry. Since the panhard starts back up, drives around and opens fire it means that somehow both the driver and gunner were missed by the path of the projectile, and that the 37mm did not disable the engine either despite apparently causing a coolant leak.

The only way something like this happens is if (like you said) the game simply isn't accepting or rendering the path of a projectile when it intersects a critical component. Driver, gunner, engine are all critical hits. Radiator not a critical, but it's the thing that is damaged. Thin armor preventing any spalling is irrelevant because the solid 37mm projectile alone should kill the crew and disable the engine if it hits them directly. Anyway this has been an issue for a long time:

 

They do call it the Panchar for a reason.

[jester]

3 hours ago, Nick said:

Having played this game for many years, killed hundreds and hundreds of tanks and been a volunteer coder for CRS I think this puts me in a good position when I agree with the OP. There is something strange happening with anti-tank rounds. 

I'd say that at least 50% of my shots aren't registering, I don't know why but I do know that  it is frustrating. 

 

Definitely something going on. I had only done 50-60 sorties or so in an ATG last campaign and ran into the disappearing round phenomenon quite a bit