DM or HE broken.

[Mosizlak]

Almost every plane I hit with 40mm bofors rounds laugh at me. 

 

Just now it Neuf FB, I hit 4 different A20s, each at least 2x.  Last one I hit SEVEN times, it still turned around and bombed me. 

Either your damage model is broken, or your HE model is broken.  Something is seriously wrong.  I probable have more AA kills than any player still playing, and I know when something is FUBAR. Been FUBAR for at least a year. 

Also hit p39 dead on, nothing. P40 dead center right in the middle of his belly, nothing. 

You guys who are flying these planes can't seriously say nothing is wrong?  

[jester]

Probably similar to the G6 thread, it ties back to the thread undercova made about crits just not registering half the time. I noticed it extensively a few maps back playing ATG.

Oh and I'm sure you know but if history tells us anything, your experience holds no value at the table "if everything looks good"

[halsey]

I don't think any pilots  are saying  nothing is wrong.  It's a constant talking point among us on allied discord probably  the same for axis.

[drkmouse]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

I don't think any pilots  are saying  nothing is wrong.  It's a constant talking point among us on allied discord probably  the same for axis.

sen a havok take   6 hits fomr a flak 30 and  4 hits fomr a   boffer and stil flyy like un hit

hit a spit other day with a he form a STUG he kept flying jsu tnow  put ful clip of 50 cal into a  spti form a  tiger  front on  nothienr...

[halsey]

So.... what's your point drkmouse? I wasn't in disagreement  with what was posted.  I just pointed out that there is a lot of talk in the flying community about the issue of planes seeming to take way too much damage.

[BMBM]

The point is drkmouse needs personal experience of the allied Teflon rides. Go fly some and see for yourself if you can survive hits, then come back here and let us know how you did.

Same applies to allied whinges - go play axis.

Yes, aircraft DM has made it harder to kill specific components, requiring you to concentrate your fire. Sloppy shooting is punished.

The new DM has been thoroughly researched, not only by us but by the manufacturers and airforces of the time, who ran thousands of tests shooting up actual planes with actual ammo, and collected data from birds that made it home despite crazy amounts of damage. We would rather use that data to give a realistic rendering than ignore it and support a fantasy one. 

In this case the thing that needs adjusting is player expectation.

[Kidd27]

4 hours ago, BMBM said:

The point is drkmouse needs personal experience of the allied Teflon rides. Go fly some and see for yourself if you can survive hits, then come back here and let us know how you did.

Same applies to allied whinges - go play axis.

Yes, aircraft DM has made it harder to kill specific components, requiring you to concentrate your fire. Sloppy shooting is punished.

The new DM has been thoroughly researched, not only by us but by the manufacturers and airforces of the time, who ran thousands of tests shooting up actual planes with actual ammo, and collected data from birds that made it home despite crazy amounts of damage. We would rather use that data to give a realistic rendering than ignore it and support a fantasy one. 

In this case the thing that needs adjusting is player expectation.

Im gonna call you on this, I agree 99% of the time the player is "incorrect"

There are instances that occur that although rare in relation to # of sorties, because of how many interactions we get in game, seem to be more frequent. I'll bow to mo's claim of multiple 40mm he hits. This experience isnt just his.

Adjusting expectations is not gonna change anything

[Mosizlak]

This is just one sortie from today, about 10 minutes ago. 

The Boston took 4x40mm, then got the hell shot out of it by a 190, then the 190 got exploded by a hurricane in 1 burst lol. 

The hawk took 2x40mm, then flew off to dogfight some LW plane. He ended up strafing the LW on the ground...

Hurricane in last clip took 3x40mm. 1 to the nose, 2 to the guts. Nothing broke off, got a pilot kill LOL. 

Not recording anymore vids, because the all look like this sortie. All of them. 

[BMBM]

Great shooting as always. I haven’t had time to look into the effects yet, will do so at first opportunity. The only other thing that comes to mind is that although you score 4 hits on the db, we have no idea of where the shots actually landed. Need to replicate that with log on to verify what’s happening.

[Kidd27]

11 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

This is just one sortie from today, about 10 minutes ago. 

The Boston took 4x40mm, then got the hell shot out of it by a 190, then the 190 got exploded by a hurricane in 1 burst lol. 

The hawk took 2x40mm, then flew off to dogfight some LW plane. He ended up strafing the LW on the ground...

Hurricane in last clip took 3x40mm. 1 to the nose, 2 to the guts. Nothing broke off, got a pilot kill LOL. 

Not recording anymore vids, because the all look like this sortie. All of them. 

well done Mo.

[Mosizlak]

Here's something from December 2019: 

88HE to the nose.  Flew on, bounced off the ground and continued til it despawned. 

If I didn't get a pilot kill nothing would have happened. 

[TEX64]

IMHO, air in this game is so overpowered and if you really can't kill enough of them to keep them off the deck.  Hundreds of planes available to shoot, bomb, strafe to impact your theatre on the front.  Bombers looping low and slow, searching for singular units and finding them.  We have much work to do in this area from my perspective whether that is fewer planes, fewer airfields, more plentiful supply of AAA guns, more advanced flak platforms, aircraft target predictors, damaged airfield modeling, temporary airfield resupply, deployed AI AAA PPO cannons, camo tents,  etc.

[fidd]

Modelling more AAA is basically pointless for now, as few players are availing themselves of the AAA that is there to be used. Reasons: aircraft damage-model as evidenced up-thread. and significant numbers if aircratt meaning that even if you do by a fluke hit one, and by a further fluke kill it, all you've actually achieved is it returning to the AO rearmed faster than if it had RTB'd!

[delems]

Ya, lol; I never read in history there were more planes than LMGs in WWII.

[Mosizlak]

1 hour ago, TEX64 said:

IMHO, air in this game is so overpowered and if you really can't kill enough of them to keep them off the deck.  Hundreds of planes available to shoot, bomb, strafe to impact your theatre on the front.  Bombers looping low and slow, searching for singular units and finding them.  We have much work to do in this area from my perspective whether that is fewer planes, fewer airfields, more plentiful supply of AAA guns, more advanced flak platforms, aircraft target predictors, damaged airfield modeling, temporary airfield resupply, deployed AI AAA PPO cannons, camo tents,  etc.

Only modelling multi barrel AA will help.  I've used the trawler AA a bit when it came out, and 4 barrel stuff chews up EA, because you're hitting them with a much greater shell weight than a single 20mm or 40mm. 

More crappy single barrel garbage on a truck is useless, especially when the planes shrug it off like nothing most of the time.  The SPAA we have is garbage, just a bigger, noisier target. 

Throw 4x20mm on a truck, or 4x50 cal on a truck and then we can talk. At least the volume of shells hitting will, maybe, compensate for the flying tanks we have in game. 

[dwalin]

I will agree with a lot in this thread.  I finally killed an A20 the other day after putting 16 bofors rounds into him.  Then this morning, 4 rounds into the engine of one and didn't even bend a prop.  

[Kidd27]

7 hours ago, Mosizlak said:

Only modelling multi barrel AA will help.  I've used the trawler AA a bit when it came out, and 4 barrel stuff chews up EA, because you're hitting them with a much greater shell weight than a single 20mm or 40mm. 

More crappy single barrel garbage on a truck is useless, especially when the planes shrug it off like nothing most of the time.  The SPAA we have is garbage, just a bigger, noisier target. 

Throw 4x20mm on a truck, or 4x50 cal on a truck and then we can talk. At least the volume of shells hitting will, maybe, compensate for the flying tanks we have in game. 

im in favor of the models, Its not going to solve the backwards problem of EA actually searching out individual AA guns to straffe.

You certainly would know Mo, shooting and killing one lets the 2 others know where you are. Then the inevitable strafe off. 50/50 at best.

There are only a few lethal AA gunners still around, not enough to thwart the EA masses

Edited November 28, 2021 by Kidd27

[fidd]

2 hours ago, dwalin said:

I will agree with a lot in this thread.  I finally killed an A20 the other day after putting 16 bofors rounds into him.  Then this morning, 4 rounds into the engine of one and didn't even bend a prop.  

That is completely absurd. You have my sympathy. 

[bogol]

There was an HE fix not too long ago. @KardehKworked on it. For about one month or so HE worked as intended. At least that was the impression of all LW I asked back then. Things would go kab00m once you hit them with a solid burst. Then, after the next patch we started noticing that HE feels 'neutered.' Of course there was no acknowledgement from CRS regarding any changes after the @KardehKHE fix. But, all pilots I spoke with have the same impression. HE worked great for a little while, after the @KardehKfix, then it was neutered. 

I also find that @KardehK's silance speaks volumes in all those threads (this is not the first one) that point out the fact that HE is no longer working the way it was after he fixed it...

 

[BMBM]

Nothing gets ”neutered”. HE is an especially troublesome item as it had a tendency to send shrap into vehicles it couldn’t possibly penetrate. That we fixed iirc. We then inproved the a/c damage model from generic to specific wrt joules required to destroy a particular component. Eg inline engines are far easier to disruot/destroy than radials - borne out by hundreds of actual engines being shot up to prove their resilience or lack thereof. This data hs been incorporated in our DM. Same with other components/airframes: Hurricanes are now tougher than Spits , an improvement over the old generic model. This is what you’re experiencing, and it’s fully acknowledged that it may come as a wee bit of a surprise.

All that said, it is not impossible that anomalies and errors still exist.

[SicnesS]

 

[OLDZEKE]

I did extensive testing to help Kard with IDing the HE issue as well as testing his fix. Kard's fix is still in the game, not been touched. 

 

[OLDZEKE]

And while I may be overstepping my bounds here, Kard's fix was so shrapnel could be turned back on for non penetrating rounds. Shrapnel for non-penetrating rounds had been turned off for years (old CRS team time) because of a really nasty bug that allowed small caliber/all caliber HE to kill through armor given the right circumstances. 

Kard sorted out a fix for that non penetration kill bug.

[bogol]

1 hour ago, SicnesS said:

 

So, @BMBM I guess that is normal behavior for 4 bofor rounds to the nose of that FW and him flying away ? 

Edited November 28, 2021 by bogol

[bogol]

3 hours ago, BMBM said:

Nothing gets ”neutered”. HE is an especially troublesome item as it had a tendency to send shrap into vehicles it couldn’t possibly penetrate. That we fixed iirc. We then inproved the a/c damage model from generic to specific wrt joules required to destroy a particular component. Eg inline engines are far easier to disruot/destroy than radials - borne out by hundreds of actual engines being shot up to prove their resilience or lack thereof. This data hs been incorporated in our DM. Same with other components/airframes: Hurricanes are now tougher than Spits , an improvement over the old generic model. This is what you’re experiencing, and it’s fully acknowledged that it may come as a wee bit of a surprise.

All that said, it is not impossible that anomalies and errors still exist.

Refresh my memory, where there any DM changes after the @KardehKHE fix was implemented?