DM or HE broken.

[DOC]

12 minutes ago, jwilly said:

if Scotsman's years-ago post about single 40mm hits anywhere on an early/mid war fighter taking it down was correct, it would seem that it shouldn't be relevant where an AA shell hit. if the AA gunner sees a hit puff, the target should go down.

Yeah but I took particular interest in those edge cases where that didn't occur, and it happened more often then the wailing mob on the internet game forums would likely be aware of. One of the best examples was from 1942 where an F4F Wildcat took a direct hit in the center of the wing, and not only continued to fly under pilot control and land, but he engaged in a turning fight with a Zero and shot it down whilst flying with a 2 foot hole in his wing. Given the unreality of consequences in a game where the psychology of events is almost entirely not present as it is in reality, and the repetition of edge case events can create skills a real pilot would never gain ... it's expected that we will see results that do not reflect the exact same indications real life data *might* suggest when ruminating over this stuff.

[jwilly]

Game companies that live or die on retention of customers, and need to retain (in this instance) both flyers and ground players in order for the game to remain functional, maybe shouldn't design their game to deliver extreme edge case real-combat outcomes as their normal game-combat outcomes. 

IMO, anyway.

If I'm remembering@Scotsman's  comment correctly, I think he might have been agreeing with that perspective.

Edited December 4, 2021 by jwilly

[tater]

In the real world in ww2, I'd wager the number of AA rounds expended per kill was ridiculously high. Many thousands or many 10s of thousands.

[JAMES10]

11 minutes ago, tater said:

In the real world in ww2, I'd wager the number of AA rounds expended per kill was ridiculously high. Many thousands or many 10s of thousands.

I would suggest that then number of rounds per kill was exceptionally high for everything in the real WWII, not just AA.

[Mosizlak]

2 hours ago, DOC said:

Yeah but I took particular interest in those edge cases where that didn't occur, and it happened more often then the wailing mob on the internet game forums would likely be aware of. One of the best examples was from 1942 where an F4F Wildcat took a direct hit in the center of the wing, and not only continued to fly under pilot control and land, but he engaged in a turning fight with a Zero and shot it down whilst flying with a 2 foot hole in his wing. Given the unreality of consequences in a game where the psychology of events is almost entirely not present as it is in reality, and the repetition of edge case events can create skills a real pilot would never gain ... it's expected that we will see results that do not reflect the exact same indications real life data *might* suggest when ruminating over this stuff.

Only problem is that the case you site is the exception, not the common, which it has become in this game. 

If what you described happened 1 out of 50 times, so be it. The plain fact is that it is happening way more than that. I'd wager that it's happening over 50% of the time.  The vid I posted in this thread is the rule, not the exception. 

2 hours ago, JAMES10 said:

I would suggest that then number of rounds per kill was exceptionally high for everything in the real WWII, not just AA.

Which means nothing in the setting of this game. 

[BMBM]

7 hours ago, jester said:

Players with x amount of experience know what is usually a kill. Common sense also tells you "yup, that should've been a kill."

You may well know by experience and ”common sense” that X fire shot at Y target should deliver an expected result. It still doesn’t trump simple shot data.

I’m constantly surprised, even at expected zero degree shots at relatively short range, to look at the log and see that I was off by 12-14 degrees. Add range and that angle may well defeat what I thought was a sure shot. The exact opposite is of course also true.

I don’t think the unknowns are irrelevant at all. To the contrary they are far more important than the knowns. Again, I’m not debating the DM or HE setup or questioning possible code issues or trying to slight anyone here - all I’m saying is you need to factor in all variables, and most of them are unknown to the player.

[Dre21]

10 hours ago, DOC said:

Yeah but I took particular interest in those edge cases where that didn't occur, and it happened more often then the wailing mob on the internet game forums would likely be aware of. One of the best examples was from 1942 where an F4F Wildcat took a direct hit in the center of the wing, and not only continued to fly under pilot control and land, but he engaged in a turning fight with a Zero and shot it down whilst flying with a 2 foot hole in his wing. Given the unreality of consequences in a game where the psychology of events is almost entirely not present as it is in reality, and the repetition of edge case events can create skills a real pilot would never gain ... it's expected that we will see results that do not reflect the exact same indications real life data *might* suggest when ruminating over this stuff.

So where is that edge case scenario for Tigers?

You know Tiger 231

 

[tater]

8 hours ago, JAMES10 said:

I would suggest that then number of rounds per kill was exceptionally high for everything in the real WWII, not just AA.

To be sure. So many rounds for suppression, vs aimed fire, for example.

AAA is largely suppression in the real world at that time. Barrage fire vs formations, and vs other threats largely to spoil pilot aim, and to convince them to not press home attacks. In ww2ol the goal is kills. The incentive is to be where the bombs won't drop, and pick off the aircraft when they can't see you—because if they see you, you are the new target. That's because for the pilots they only get credit for killing a player, and the player density is low.

All the incentives are wrong, and players follow the incentives that the game rewards.

Aside, as a quote:

Quote

I go on about bots, but imagine a ww2ol of the future where the game is 1:1 scale, looks like the best possible graphics today (or better), and is accurately populated with units. Players are however many that are spawned in, the rest are bots—and the bots are as good as people, not BETTER than people, indistinguishable, designed to have the skills and flaws of people. (all that was to avoid this going OT on bots, suspend disbelief a sec, people). So now air comes to attack a town, do they concentrate on YOU, the AAA gun 3rd from the left in a battery of guns, or do they attack that concentration of troops a km over there?

They would attack the "real" targets, since they would actually exist. In the current game the only real targets are the handful of players.

 

[JAMES10]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:37 AM, jester said:

Players with x amount of experience know what is usually a kill. Common sense also tells you "yup, that should've been a kill." (Catastrophic kill at that) Like 4x bofors hitting a single engine fighter.

A part of the equation that is being overlooked is the "Players with x amount of experience . . ." have obtained that experience based on the Old datasets. As the datasets impinging the experience gained, are no longer in use, the experience resulting from the old datasets is potentially no longer valid either.

Is there an issue, possibly however, the experience gained also has a issue as well. I believe Ammunition Audit and Damage Audit have happened. New datasets.

Cheers.

Edited December 5, 2021 by JAMES10

[jester]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:51 AM, JAMES10 said:

A part of the equation that is being overlooked is the "Players with x amount of experience . . ." have obtained that experience based on the Old datasets. As the datasets impinging the experience gained, are no longer in use, the experience resulting from the old datasets is potentially no longer valid either.

Potentially, sure. Potentially it could be even more accurate which would further go to reinforce the player's intuition on what's a kill. Bit of a moot point, this. And in some cases like the 40mm vs aircraft we have seen.. well it just doesn't apply entirely.

On 12/5/2021 at 7:51 AM, JAMES10 said:

Is there an issue, possibly however, the experience gained also has a issue as well. I believe Ammunition Audit and Damage Audit have happened. New datasets.

Quite certain we are beyond the point of speculation on there being an issue or not. It's pretty evident. What caused it/how it's fixed is the question. Considering that Ammo/DM stuff was touched, that's probably a good place to start.

Edited December 6, 2021 by jester

[bogol]

@Mosizlakcan you give CRS the specific time stamp of the sortie you hit that single engine with bofors x4 times to the nose? 

I think you can find it based on the time stamp on your vid. Then perhaps @BMBM or someone else in CRS can check the logs he is talking about so that they can see where specifically you hit that plane. How many of your x4 rounds were to the tip of the wing, how many to the tip of the propeler, and how many straight to the nose of the pilot. I am curious now. And that should settle this once and for all. Well unfortunately it won't solve anything, but at least we will all stop speculating about you being a terrible shot. We all know you are the worst AA gunner ever LOL 

[BMBM]

I’m only familiar with local logs, not network logs. A wild guess is that they don’t contain the same specifics as the local log, which keeps track of (your own) weapon action including spall and shrap. 

Just to be sure, no one is accusing Mo of being a lousy shot. Quite the contrary.

[Kidd27]

On 12/4/2021 at 3:42 AM, Mosizlak said:

Only problem is that the case you site is the exception, not the common, which it has become in this game. 

If what you described happened 1 out of 50 times, so be it. 

I want to point out that 1/50 would still be quite "common" in game, where thousands of interactions are happening every day. Exponentially more than ever happened in real life.

I dont disagree with the point of the post.

[Kidd27]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:46 AM, Dre21 said:

So where is that edge case scenario for Tigers?

You know Tiger 231

 

did you watch it, or just like the title?

The tiger survived 300 low calibre/penetration weapons. AT rifles /45s. the largest being a T34 round.

maybe the point was to show how the optics/ machine guns or main, can get knocked out by a 45 and you'd like that modelled asap.

[JAMES10]

On 12/7/2021 at 3:36 AM, jester said:

Quite certain we are beyond the point of speculation on there being an issue or not. It's pretty evident. What caused it/how it's fixed is the question. Considering that Ammo/DM stuff was touched, that's probably a good place to start.

Well I wouldn't be so sure as the basic issue is things are not what they were. Yes that is true the "Ammo/DM stuff" was touched. I believe amended in fact.

All of the discussion is based on "experience gained" in-game or possibly in other games, so actual "real life" aspects are not available to be used as a for comparisons. Only the considerable accumulated experience gained previously in-game forms the basis for indicating there is a potential issue, which there may be. The biggest issue there is that the considerable accumulated experience is probably no longer as a valid baseline because the recent "Audit and Damage Audit" has changed the baseline data. What you can say is, "my experience indicates this is what happened in the past with the old data".

Yes there may be an issue with how the DM or HE is behaving. Additionally the considerable accumulated experience also currently has issues because it is very likely be based on replaced older data.

Cheers.

Edited December 7, 2021 by JAMES10

[OLDZEKE]

17 hours ago, bogol said:

@Mosizlakcan you give CRS the specific time stamp of the sortie you hit that single engine with bofors x4 times to the nose? 

I think you can find it based on the time stamp on your vid. Then perhaps @BMBM or someone else in CRS can check the logs he is talking about so that they can see where specifically you hit that plane. How many of your x4 rounds were to the tip of the wing, how many to the tip of the propeler, and how many straight to the nose of the pilot. I am curious now. And that should settle this once and for all. Well unfortunately it won't solve anything, but at least we will all stop speculating about you being a terrible shot. We all know you are the worst AA gunner ever LOL 

The server does not log ammo. That would fill up memory on the server in a few minutes of regular play.

When we test, we that have the ability and access turn on logging on our clients. For ammo and DM testing we only turn on weapon logging. 1 single 40mmHE bofor round airbursting creates 644 lines of log data. That's the round fusing out without contacting anything and the shrapnel timing out with hitting anything. I that round hits a vehicle surface then add a line that it, plus a line that it didn't penetrate, plus a line that says the fuse went off. If it did penetrate than a line of what it hits next if it hits anything inside the vehicle before the fuse finishes, 

Now calculate if it penetrated a surface that was hardened enough to create spall, if so add a line for each piece of spall created and what each hit.

Not fusing is complete, whether the round did or did not penetrate the round explodes into shrapnel. Each shrap piece creates a line as to what it hit, if it penetrated that then it has another line as to where it stopped/what it hit next. 

A log files size adds up quick just testing alone. Add in all the players, all the ai and no, the server does not keep a ammo/weapons log.

Forgot to add the lines for concussion. All HE rounds produce concussion scaled to the HE amount and type. Concussion is factored as to damage.

[bmw]

Maybe there is a problem, maybe there isnt but for me I drop everything and do some testing.  No point in new stuff if the old stuff is acting up.

[jayhawk]

Turn the clock back to 3 year ago then everything would work just the way it suppose to be , problem solve 

[bogol]

6 hours ago, OLDZEKE said:

The server does not log ammo. That would fill up memory on the server in a few minutes of regular play.

When we test, we that have the ability and access turn on logging on our clients. For ammo and DM testing we only turn on weapon logging. 1 single 40mmHE bofor round airbursting creates 644 lines of log data. That's the round fusing out without contacting anything and the shrapnel timing out with hitting anything. I that round hits a vehicle surface then add a line that it, plus a line that it didn't penetrate, plus a line that says the fuse went off. If it did penetrate than a line of what it hits next if it hits anything inside the vehicle before the fuse finishes, 

Now calculate if it penetrated a surface that was hardened enough to create spall, if so add a line for each piece of spall created and what each hit.

Not fusing is complete, whether the round did or did not penetrate the round explodes into shrapnel. Each shrap piece creates a line as to what it hit, if it penetrated that then it has another line as to where it stopped/what it hit next. 

A log files size adds up quick just testing alone. Add in all the players, all the ai and no, the server does not keep a ammo/weapons log.

Forgot to add the lines for concussion. All HE rounds produce concussion scaled to the HE amount and type. Concussion is factored as to damage.

Thank you for the explanation @OLDZEKE!

[Mosizlak]

5 hours ago, jayhawk said:

Turn the clock back to 3 year ago then everything would work just the way it suppose to be , problem solve 

Just look at my videos from back then. Stuff died within reasonable expectation, even though the db7 series still took way too much damage.  Now?  You need stinger missiles to bring down EA. 

[BMBM]

I’d like to hear what the pilots’ experiences are. I don’t have recent airtime to speak of but, moons ago, I don’t recall walking away from any 40mm or multiple 20mm hit without debilitating effect. 

[Kidd27]

4 hours ago, BMBM said:

I’d like to hear what the pilots’ experiences are. I don’t have recent airtime to speak of but, moons ago, I don’t recall walking away from any 40mm or multiple 20mm hit without debilitating effect. 

Its tough to tell what caliber round is hitting my ride, im more survivable for sure. certainly, the pilot  can still be killed via a single round, and losing parts or a catastrophic event still happen to a single bofor hit.

Although i feel the rides are better equipped to search out and destroy AA, rather than a sense of fear