Armor Pen Issue? - See video.. Includes data at the end

[dfire]

 

[Kilemall]

Like I said in game, what’s the angle?

Use this tool to calculate angles.

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator

Three variables here, which Sherman the Firefly modeled that is used for the game, relative alt, and dispersion modeling.

Most conversion chassis should be the standard Sherman front hull, which is 51mm at 56 degrees.  I use the AFVDB site, about as close to Hunnicutt as you are going to get.

 

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

The other possibility is that the chassis we have uses the Sherman 76 one, which is 64mm at 47 degrees- a much tougher prospect.

 

 

Using the calculator, standard Sherman would be 88.92mm.  76mm Sherman would be 93.84.

Of course you had an alt advantage, critical when engaging sloped armor.  Everyone should fight to get tanks and big ATG on heights.  I’m guessing we can shave 20 degrees off the slope for your shot in the video, yielding M4 front hull armor as 63.04mm and 76 as 71.83mm.

If the situation were reversed and the Firefly had 20 degree alt advantage on you, it would be M4 210.81mm and 76 163mm.  So don’t let those Shermans get alt.

The third variable is modeled dispersion.  Mosizlak was asking about the 88 flak hit probability in RL testing.  I found a chart that shows they started dropping off probability of hit at 1.5 km or more.  So even the RL Heer dropped off to hit, and that seemed to fit his experience.  I suspect there is a bit of something in the ammo flight path of everything to yield similar matches, or just the distances work to make even a half degree off shot be a 5m miss.

 

Here is the table in question, under performance.  Optimal engagement range would be 1-1.5km.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

Looked to me like most of your shots flat missed.  Anything hitting the lower hull would be a similar relative armor issue and likely no pen.  You hit him square on those last shots and explosion.  
 

The only question mark to me was one early front hull hit and what looked like turret top hits.  At my estimate of 70 degrees, the 25mm renders as 73mm effective.  If it was more 80 degrees, the effective top armor becomes 143.97mm.  Similar multipliers apply to the other Sherman higher alt front hulls.

Looks to me like you got him about 5th to last shot, no more firing, he was brewing up from that point on.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Kilemall

[dfire]

1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

Like I said in game, what’s the angle?

Use this tool to calculate angles.

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator

Three variables here, which Sherman the Firefly modeled that is used for the game, relative alt, and dispersion modeling.

Most conversion chassis should be the standard Sherman front hull, which is 51mm at 56 degrees.  I use the AFVDB site, about as close to Hunnicutt as you are going to get.

 

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

The other possibility is that the chassis we have uses the Sherman 76 one, which is 64mm at 47 degrees- a much tougher prospect.

 

 

Using the calculator, standard Sherman would be 88.92mm.  76mm Sherman would be 93.84.

Of course you had an alt advantage, critical when engaging sloped armor.  Everyone should fight to get tanks and big ATG on heights.  I’m guessing we can shave 20 degrees off the slope for your shot in the video, yielding M4 front hull armor as 63.04mm and 76 as 71.83mm.

If the situation were reversed and the Firefly had 20 degree alt advantage on you, it would be M4 210.81mm and 76 163mm.  So don’t let those Shermans get alt.

The third variable is modeled dispersion.  Mosizlak was asking about the 88 flak hit probability in RL testing.  I found a chart that shows they started dropping off probability of hit at 1.5 km or more.  So even the RL Heer dropped off to hit, and that seemed to fit his experience.  I suspect there is a bit of something in the ammo flight path of everything to yield similar matches, or just the distances work to make even a half degree off shot be a 5m miss.

 

Here is the table in question, under performance.  Optimal engagement range would be 1-1.5km.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

Looked to me like most of your shots flat missed.  Anything hitting the lower hull would be a similar relative armor issue and likely no pen.  You hit him square on those last shots and explosion.  
 

The only question mark to me was one early front hull hit and what looked like turret top hits.  At my estimate of 70 degrees, the 25mm renders as 73mm effective.  If it was more 80 degrees, the effective top armor becomes 143.97mm.  Similar multipliers apply to the other Sherman higher alt front hulls.

Looks to me like you got him about 5th to last shot, no more firing, he was brewing up from that point on.

 

 

 

 

None of my shots killed him, he was killed by a panzershreck at the end. You couldn't see the guy with the panzershreck due to render range for inf. Shreck guy confirmed he shrecked the Sherman and it instantly flamed. Furthermore, I didn't get kill credit an he did. It was @panzer

[dfire]

1 hour ago, Kilemall said:

Like I said in game, what’s the angle?

Use this tool to calculate angles.

https://panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator

Three variables here, which Sherman the Firefly modeled that is used for the game, relative alt, and dispersion modeling.

Most conversion chassis should be the standard Sherman front hull, which is 51mm at 56 degrees.  I use the AFVDB site, about as close to Hunnicutt as you are going to get.

 

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

The other possibility is that the chassis we have uses the Sherman 76 one, which is 64mm at 47 degrees- a much tougher prospect.

 

 

Using the calculator, standard Sherman would be 88.92mm.  76mm Sherman would be 93.84.

Of course you had an alt advantage, critical when engaging sloped armor.  Everyone should fight to get tanks and big ATG on heights.  I’m guessing we can shave 20 degrees off the slope for your shot in the video, yielding M4 front hull armor as 63.04mm and 76 as 71.83mm.

If the situation were reversed and the Firefly had 20 degree alt advantage on you, it would be M4 210.81mm and 76 163mm.  So don’t let those Shermans get alt.

The third variable is modeled dispersion.  Mosizlak was asking about the 88 flak hit probability in RL testing.  I found a chart that shows they started dropping off probability of hit at 1.5 km or more.  So even the RL Heer dropped off to hit, and that seemed to fit his experience.  I suspect there is a bit of something in the ammo flight path of everything to yield similar matches, or just the distances work to make even a half degree off shot be a 5m miss.

 

Here is the table in question, under performance.  Optimal engagement range would be 1-1.5km.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

Looked to me like most of your shots flat missed.  Anything hitting the lower hull would be a similar relative armor issue and likely no pen.  You hit him square on those last shots and explosion.  
 

The only question mark to me was one early front hull hit and what looked like turret top hits.  At my estimate of 70 degrees, the 25mm renders as 73mm effective.  If it was more 80 degrees, the effective top armor becomes 143.97mm.  Similar multipliers apply to the other Sherman higher alt front hulls.

Looks to me like you got him about 5th to last shot, no more firing, he was brewing up from that point on.

 

 

 

 

I mostly agree on your analysis. I too was perplexed at the early and late shots that did in fact hit the middle ish hull. Those are what I'm talking about, not the misses nor edge of hull hits.

[Kilemall]

Just now, dfire said:

None of my shots killed him, he was killed by a panzershreck at the end. You couldn't see the guy with the panzershreck due to render range for inf. Shreck guy confirmed he shrecked the Sherman and it instantly flamed. Furthermore, I didn't get kill credit an he did. It was @panzer

Hmm, that’s concerning.  I’m not surprised about the misses, but a couple of those hits were clearly on.

[Dre21]

9 hours ago, dfire said:

None of my shots killed him, he was killed by a panzershreck at the end. You couldn't see the guy with the panzershreck due to render range for inf. Shreck guy confirmed he shrecked the Sherman and it instantly flamed. Furthermore, I didn't get kill credit an he did. It was @panzer

As far as I know Panzer does not post in the Forum,  not positive if he goes through them ,he is a squad mate of mine . I can make him aware of the post if you would like.

How many days ago was this ? Just went through Panzers CSR page and there is no recorded FF kill I was curious who the FF operator was .

 

DM79 has brought the sherman and overperforming sloped armor up numerous times with video too and nothing has come of it , besides DM79 leaving the game again .

Edited January 17, 2023 by Dre21

[Obelix1]

WOW! Sight retention, for adjusting your shot. I thought 76mm gunnery in the scorpion turret was a challenge. 

[Mosizlak]

I put 6 or 7  75mm AP from 4h into a s76 last night at 800m. 

Nothing lol. Was comical. 

[dfire]

11 hours ago, Dre21 said:

As far as I know Panzer does not post in the Forum,  not positive if he goes through them ,he is a squad mate of mine . I can make him aware of the post if you would like.

How many days ago was this ? Just went through Panzers CSR page and there is no recorded FF kill I was curious who the FF operator was .

 

DM79 has brought the sherman and overperforming sloped armor up numerous times with video too and nothing has come of it , besides DM79 leaving the game again .

This was January 14th, Mending-Musch fb as the origin.... 20:30-20:49. I found the sortie. He has a kill on a Firefly which was operated by Arno

Edited January 18, 2023 by dfire

[Dre21]

6 minutes ago, dfire said:

This was January 14th, Mending-Musch fb as the origin.... 20:30-20:49. I found the sortie. He has a kill on a Firefly which was operated by Arno

I really suspect that the ping has something to do with it , now we take overperforming sloped armor and voila a great tank just became almost invincible. 

I'll send ya pm why I think the ping added with overperforming sloped armor is the reason why we see poor results with the Tiger , it's all a suspicion on my part , but its starting to make more and more sense I think .

[ezrelay]

 

Quote

DM79 has brought the sherman and overperforming sloped armor up numerous times with video too and nothing has come of it , besides DM79 leaving the game again .

Yeah part of the reason im not subbed along with a few others. Im sure someone with capital letters will inform you there is nothing wrong with the armor game. 

[arno]

On 1/17/2023 at 7:04 PM, dfire said:

This was January 14th, Mending-Musch fb as the origin.... 20:30-20:49. I found the sortie. He has a kill on a Firefly which was operated by Arno

Not a good moment for me.  I had the Firefly on autopilot while I was using my second account to help take down an EFMS.  When I tabbed back into the FF I was in that horrible position.  I got tracked almost immediately, so I had to fight it out.  
 

My recollection of the encounter is that I was being hit from the FB area (and apparently shot at from long range too) but from my perspective not particularly hard.  It looks to me that you were at extreme long range.  In my opinion you were not hitting me as cleanly as you might think. 
 

Also I was on a slight down slope and also offset a little bit to the FB.  In other words I was presenting a very dirty angle for penetrating hits.

 

Sometimes the context from the other side helps.  I don’t know that this does.

[delems]

*** I really suspect that the ping has something to do with it

If this is true, it should happen with any tank battle?

Tiger unable to kill Cru, Mattie unable to kill IIF. etc.

How come this only happens on a few vehicles?

[Dre21]

15 hours ago, delems said:

*** I really suspect that the ping has something to do with it

If this is true, it should happen with any tank battle?

Tiger unable to kill Cru, Mattie unable to kill IIF. etc.

How come this only happens on a few vehicles?

I wouldn't necessarily say few vehicles,  like I said before good chance that a bug crept into the sloped Armor threshold , Axis don't have anything with sloped armor , Allies have plenty , Stu,  Sherman's , M10 to name a few , now add a few certain Allied Tanker names to the mix that might have questionable ping and you have a piece of Armor that withstands a lot more then it should . 

The players with normal lower ping die a bit quicker then the ones with higher ping . 

A few days ago had a FF drive right at me came through bushes , I already had my gun on him nailed him right side of his gun distance 500 meters , I was 4H he returned fire,  I lost , at 500 meters not one crew member in that turret should be in one piece from a 75mm long gun round.

[vongters]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:13 PM, Dre21 said:

I wouldn't necessarily say few vehicles,  like I said before good chance that a bug crept into the sloped Armor threshold , Axis don't have anything with sloped armor , Allies have plenty , Stu,  Sherman's , M10 to name a few , now add a few certain Allied Tanker names to the mix that might have questionable ping and you have a piece of Armor that withstands a lot more then it should . 

The players with normal lower ping die a bit quicker then the ones with higher ping . 

A few days ago had a FF drive right at me came through bushes , I already had my gun on him nailed him right side of his gun distance 500 meters , I was 4H he returned fire,  I lost , at 500 meters not one crew member in that turret should be in one piece from a 75mm long gun round.

a few hours ago, i saw a video of dfire where he had 44 rifle kills. I noticed his very low pings and the fluidity with which he saw the realistic movements of the enemy infantrymen... And it is evident at least to me that I play with high pings and where the movements of the enemy infantrymen are not so ''fluids and realistics'' that the diversity of pings affects a lot in the game.
But one thing is even more certain, if I had very low pings, I would still always be a bad inf 

[arno]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:13 AM, Dre21 said:

I wouldn't necessarily say few vehicles,  like I said before good chance that a bug crept into the sloped Armor threshold , Axis don't have anything with sloped armor , Allies have plenty , Stu,  Sherman's , M10 to name a few , now add a few certain Allied Tanker names to the mix that might have questionable ping and you have a piece of Armor that withstands a lot more then it should . 

The players with normal lower ping die a bit quicker than the ones with higher ping . 

My ping is in the 30 to 50 range.  Ping is not an issue.

This issue (bug) as it relates to this incident is a non-issue imho.

Also weird things happen to both sides. Some of us just tank on without complaint.

[vongters]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:56 PM, arno said:

My ping is in the 30 to 50 range.  Ping is not an issue.

This issue (bug) as it relates to this incident is a non-issue imho.

Also weird things happen to both sides. Some of us just tank on without complaint.

@arnoHaving a better ping certainly helps but obviously it's not a ''fault''. Yesterday in a town whose name escapes me now, engaged ETs from 2000/2300m. About 60/70% of my shots disappeared through enemy armour without causing any damage. My pings are usually around 150 now but there are lots of jumps, so sometimes I have them at 130 and shortly after 190 with lots of packet loss. 
According with daokoth1, sometimes it can be an advantage when I get shots but I can safely say that generally, especially on long range shots, it's absolutely a disadvantage. Without considering that it often causes the engine bug and therefore unless you will do rtb and despawn ... you risk becoming deaf and you aren't able to hear enemies as well.

[Dre21]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:56 AM, arno said:

My ping is in the 30 to 50 range.  Ping is not an issue.

This issue (bug) as it relates to this incident is a non-issue imho.

Also weird things happen to both sides. Some of us just tank on without complaint.

I beg to differ, I just upgraded my graphics card and my ram and the fluid game play I got playing INF is night and day from what I used to have . My ping is in your range now , before it wasn't the case , and often I got the short end of the stick in INF play vs others.

[vongters]

47 minutes ago, Dre21 said:

I beg to differ, I just upgraded my graphics card and my ram and the fluid game play I got playing INF is night and day from what I used to have . My ping is in your range now , before it wasn't the case , and often I got the short end of the stick in INF play vs others.

In fact I'm waiting for another16gb ram ddr4 3200mhz (32 total), to understand if it will affect the lost packets and if I will have even less autodespawn... although I have an excellent pc with nvidia 3060ti. Bought it just for curiosity)))

Edited February 9, 2023 by vongters

[Mosizlak]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:13 AM, Dre21 said:

I wouldn't necessarily say few vehicles,  like I said before good chance that a bug crept into the sloped Armor threshold , Axis don't have anything with sloped armor , Allies have plenty , Stu,  Sherman's , M10 to name a few , now add a few certain Allied Tanker names to the mix that might have questionable ping and you have a piece of Armor that withstands a lot more then it should . 

The players with normal lower ping die a bit quicker then the ones with higher ping . 

A few days ago had a FF drive right at me came through bushes , I already had my gun on him nailed him right side of his gun distance 500 meters , I was 4H he returned fire,  I lost , at 500 meters not one crew member in that turret should be in one piece from a 75mm long gun round.

Had the same things happen to me in the 4h. All on video, too.   Dead to rights and I end up dead LOL