Cap timers broke.

[undercova]

1 minute ago, N8 said:

lol, always 8 minutes if you solo cap. 

apparently they play a different game ... or on a different server ...

[ZEBBEEE]

Tried now with my tow account and it indeed had 8 minutes. 

Well that's definitely not normal since the code mentions 4 min + 50% max OP.

I am reporting it internally

[choad]

Post a video of it .... seems pretty easy to do .... albeit boring as hell. But, it happens all the time to everyone ... so post 8 min of pure boredom, would probably help move this issue along!

[choad]

10 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

Tried now with my tow account and it indeed had 8 minutes. 

Well that's definitely not normal since the code mentions 4 min + 50% max OP.

I am reporting it internally

Wunderbar! Would be good to know if this is a bug only impacting Axis. If so it would be criminal.

[N8]

2 hours ago, choad said:

Wunderbar! Would be good to know if this is a bug only impacting Axis. If so it would be criminal.

Eh, not sure about that one.

It could be, could be not. 

Guess someone on the Allied side has to time a solo-cap by themselves and see how much they get.

[delems]

This been fixed yet?   Or still not as published?

[delems]

Still doesn't seem correct.

Maybe dump SD (which will fix Enter World bug) if capture timers going to be so extreme.

Edited July 23, 2021 by delems

[choad]

17 hours ago, delems said:

Still doesn't seem correct.

Maybe dump SD (which will fix Enter World bug) if capture timers going to be so extreme.

You guys have been extremely OP at times, what time of day was it?

[XOOM]

19 hours ago, delems said:

Still doesn't seem correct.

Maybe dump SD (which will fix Enter World bug) if capture timers going to be so extreme.

The only time capture timers are complained about, is when the side on the offensive cannot completely overwhelm the underpopulated side. The timers are working as intended and they're doing their job to balance the tide of battle. 

We won't be dumping spawn delay because that also acts as a critical balance tool to provide a fighting chance.

For the last several campaign's where Allied forces were pushing eastward, we made no exceptions for the Germans in this regard. Therefore we will not be making an exception simply because you are on the offensive and are inconvenienced.

[delems]

*** The only time capture timers are complained about, is when the side on the offensive cannot completely overwhelm the underpopulated side.

That is not true.

I'm bringing it up, because the capture timers are not consistent with what the rats posted since map 163.

It has nothing to do with winning or losing.

It has to do with capture timers are not working right.

 

We often see 8 min capture times, how come?  Max should be 6 min.

Base capture is supposed to be 240 sec as posted by rats, with 50% penalty that is 360 sec; 6 min.

(Even noted by a rat 2 months ago)

But, that is not what we see in game.

I get SD and capture timers, I don't get why capture timers aren't accurate.

Edited July 25, 2021 by delems

[bus0]

As Mr.T would say 'STFU fool'

Bring the timers down to '0' Xoom so they can cap 20 towns instead of 10, still they will be 'inconvenienced' by the beautiful sheep crossing the road for no apparent reason then post to 'ban the sheep'

Edited July 29, 2021 by bus0

[saffroli]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:51 PM, XOOM said:

The only time capture timers are complained about, is when the side on the offensive cannot completely overwhelm the underpopulated side. The timers are working as intended and they're doing their job to balance the tide of battle. 

We won't be dumping spawn delay because that also acts as a critical balance tool to provide a fighting chance.

For the last several campaign's where Allied forces were pushing eastward, we made no exceptions for the Germans in this regard. Therefore we will not be making an exception simply because you are on the offensive and are inconvenienced.

I think this is true to an extent but I would like to see more sharpness in regards to the threshold of by how much timers are pegged back relative to population offset, because I've seen instances of no SD when I've spawned in, yet seen the opposing side capture a CP easily within a minute just with a single guy.

I could be wrong, but from a player perspective it feels like cap timer penalties are very much on a binary scale of ON or OFF rather than a percentage increase from 0%.

The wider problem is SD. I think if you have SD implemented than timers on top of that is a huge penalty for an individual player. If you have timers penalty enabled then there really isn't a need for SD anymore. SD's only "benefit" is it gives one side or another an indication of which side is OP but it may encourage more people from the UP side to logout. 

I think if you remove SD you remove the individual penalty on player spawning and defer it to a SIDE based penalty of cap timer penalty which IMO is as it should be, the SIDE is overpopulated, an INDIVIDUAL did not cause this, a bunch of players did.

We shouldn't be punishing individual players when we don't have to.

It can't be said on good countenance that someone should be penalized to spawn in on a DO that has equal numbers in battle because of an OP imbalance at an AO that they aren't part of. Plus you have people who sit AFK in hangars/fbs/whatever and jam up the SD "artificially" and in a noticeable way.

But in regards to cap timers and SD generally, I don't think it really works, because all units are counted air, sea, ground, correct? So if you had only 4 people on the ground, 2 attackers and 2 defenders, but the defenders had 15 people flying air in a completely different part of the map, the defenders would be penalized for this, when in reality they shouldn't be. Those 2 attackers would be able to overrun the town by having faster cap speeds meanwhile the 2 defenders can't do anything about it and those two defenders have done nothing "wrong", yet they're being penalized.

People will say, well that's the pilots fault for not heeding calls for help or whatever, but you can only reasonably ASK for help, you can't DEMAND it. People will always do what they want to do. And when you have people who have multiple accounts, or in theory, you could load up multiple accounts on the opposing side, with the low numbers we have, those accounts make a huge difference on SD and Cap timers.
 

[delems]

*** Bring the timers down to '0' Xoom so they can cap 20 towns instead of 10, still they will be 'inconvenienced' by the beautiful sheep crossing the road for no apparent reason then post to 'ban the sheep'

Nobody is asking for that.

I am asking for the PUBLISHED RAT capture timers......  PUBLISHED as of map 163.

To correspond with actual game capture times.  They aren't the same.

Either fix the capture times in game, or publish the CORRECT capture times and how penalties are calculated, so as to match what I see in the game.

 

Again, you change the subject and red herring, rather than answer the question or make a point regarding the topic.

Edited July 29, 2021 by delems

[delems]

Let's compromise.

Removed SD (which will fix the Enter World bug), and we can keep the borked 8 min capture timers.

[fidd]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:25 PM, delems said:

*** The only time capture timers are complained about, is when the side on the offensive cannot completely overwhelm the underpopulated side.

That is not true.

I'm bringing it up, because the capture timers are not consistent with what the rats posted since map 163.

It has nothing to do with winning or losing.

It has to do with capture timers are not working right.

 

We often see 8 min capture times, how come?  Max should be 6 min.

Base capture is supposed to be 240 sec as posted by rats, with 50% penalty that is 360 sec; 6 min.

(Even noted by a rat 2 months ago)

But, that is not what we see in game.

I get SD and capture timers, I don't get why capture timers aren't accurate.

Think of it as a sentient but malevolently humorous SYSTEM telling you to cease playing with yourself and to swap sides to provide an opposition in that TZ.... <g>

[Capco]

On 7/24/2021 at 11:51 AM, XOOM said:

The only time capture timers are complained about, is when the side on the offensive cannot completely overwhelm the underpopulated side. The timers are working as intended and they're doing their job to balance the tide of battle. 

We won't be dumping spawn delay because that also acts as a critical balance tool to provide a fighting chance.

For the last several campaign's where Allied forces were pushing eastward, we made no exceptions for the Germans in this regard. Therefore we will not be making an exception simply because you are on the offensive and are inconvenienced.

Excellent post.  Perfect response.  

Just got done playing several hours while heavily underpop (i.e., simultaneous "Soldiers Needed" reports at both our AO and DO throughout the night) and the variable cap timers made an enormous difference.  

Did it make so much of a difference that the underpop side was capping towns while the overpop side couldn't take anything?  Nope!  They still capped all of their targets tonight and we still couldn't cap squat.  

However, we were able to recap CPs at our DO at a high enough rate such that we were able to slow down the enemy's roll.  In addition, we were able to cap CPs at our AO quickly enough so that the few people we had attacking were able to siphon off attackers from our DO. 

Variable cap timers do not stop town captures.  They just slow them down.  That was precisely the same impetus for hybrid supply, was it not?  To create a system that slows down catastrophic map rolls?  Variable capture timers should be held in the same vein.  

I genuinely wonder how much could have been different if variable cap timers were instituted a decade ago....

[Capco]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:25 PM, delems said:

I get SD and capture timers, I don't get why capture timers aren't accurate.

It's because this game has more spaghetti in the code than they have in Italy (and therefore, the Italians have always been in-game in a way haha).  

We both know that SD has never functioned perfectly (i.e., there are times where the newly underpop side has residual spawn delay).  It's no different with the cap timers.

If CRS said "hey, we meant it to be 6 minutes max, but as it turns out it's actually 8 minutes max, and we like that better so we are keeping it" then what would be your response, delems?

[delems]

*** If CRS said "hey, we meant it to be 6 minutes max, but as it turns out it's actually 8 minutes max, and we like that better so we are keeping it" then what would be your response, delems?

I would be glad they finally admitted the truth.

And I'd ask for them to post the new capture times and how penalties are calculated.

As the announcement from map 163, surely isn't accurate.

Edited August 8, 2021 by delems

[Capco]

3 minutes ago, delems said:

*** If CRS said "hey, we meant it to be 6 minutes max, but as it turns out it's actually 8 minutes max, and we like that better so we are keeping it" then what would be your response, delems?

I would be glad they finally admitted the truth.  And I'd ask for the new posted capture times and how penalties are calculated.

As the announce from map 163 surely isn't accurate.

I think it might also be a math bork.

 

Think about this: minimum cap timer is 2 minutes for one player iirc. If the base timer is 4 minutes, that means the underpop side is capping twice as fast, right? 
 

Well, what’s the inverse of 2? It’s 1/2 or 0.5. Thus, 4 minutes becomes 8 minutes for the overpop side.

[delems]

*** Well, what’s the inverse of 2? It’s 1/2 or 0.5. Thus, 4 minutes becomes 8 minutes for the overpop side.

So then, then under caps 50% faster, but over caps 100% slower?

Could be it, but not what is posted by the rats as to how captures are supposed to work.

 

Also seems excessive.

allies have 10 players, axis 15.

And allies can cap in 2 minutes while axis 8 min?  400% slower.... with only 50% more players?

Edited August 8, 2021 by delems

[Capco]

30 minutes ago, delems said:

*** Well, what’s the inverse of 2? It’s 1/2 or 0.5. Thus, 4 minutes becomes 8 minutes for the overpop side.

So then, then under caps 50% faster, but over caps 100% slower?

Could be it, but not what is posted by the rats as to how captures are supposed to work.

 

Also seems excessive.

allies have 10 players, axis 15.

And allies can cap in 2 minutes while axis 8 min?  400% slower.... with only 50% more players?

It would be 100% faster for the underpop side and 100% slower for the overpop side.

 

If it were 50% faster for the underpop side, that would 2 minutes 40 seconds.

 

Conversely, 50% slower would be 6 minutes.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Capco

[delems]

Base time is 240. (allegedly)

I'm saying if under caps in 2 min, and over in 8 min -- that is 400% slower than your opponent.

240->120 is 50% faster; 240->480 is 100% slower - that is from base timers --- but who cares about that?

The question is, how much faster the under pop side can capture vrs the over pop side.

Being 50% over pop and capping 400% slower seems excessive to me.

[Capco]

6 minutes ago, delems said:

240->120 is 50% faster; 240->480 is 100% slower

It’s not 50% faster.
 

In order for something to occur in half the time, it needs to go twice as fast per unit time (x2). If it were 50% faster, that would be 1.5 times as fast per unit time.

Trust me, I’m an engineer.

[david060]

Cap timers are not necessarily broke they are just implemented terribly:

• Capture timer penalty is determined by % more players than the other team regardless of total server pop. There is no lower threshold below which integer values are used instead of percentages.

• Any player spawned in game is counted toward the pop equation

• All units are counted equally, whether bolt-action rifle or heavy tank (though I never verified multi-crew).

• F2P are counted the same as subscribers

• the polling rate is quite slow and/or the penalty on the server lags significantly behind the calculation

• There is no filtering of the player count at all, not on AFK status or anything else. 

The above aspects create some peculiar behaviors:

• If the underpop team has eight players online and the overpop twelve, that is still 50% more so overpop gets slammed.

• A single player logging on or off can cause massive capture timer fluctuations.

• Having an additional player spawn in to the game world to help capture can easily result in a net increase to the cap timer.

• If several players are killed quickly in a depot during lowpop, the killer will be able to cap/recap for awhile with a potentially massive benefit because the game is still using the pre-kill capture penalty. 

• Flooding infantry in to a FMS outside of town is probably the worst tactic, while flooding infantry in to a spawn is best because they can make it to the depot and capture some before the capture penalty updates.

• Technically the way to win is to spawn in to the game as little as possible

• The worst thing for your team is to have a group of new players online

• Switching teams, spawning a rifleman, and going AFK is a more effective way to defend your team than spawning a rifleman and trying to clear a depot.

[jwilly]

27 minutes ago, Capco said:

Trust me, I’m an engineer.