P38 50 cal kill on Tiger

[jester]

Looks like a wtf moment unless there's some new armor leak on the Tiger, which could be possible. Gotta go test it with hatch closed.

[undercova]

i think i know the reason ... and it is also the reason why a 25mm atg and 2pdr can easily kill a Tiger from flank too. when i look at this video ... it is the exact same reason imo

Me and Saffroli found it many months ago ... and if this gets public the Tiger will be a simple 231 with 88mm gun on it. once i would publish a bug report about it ... you can be sure that magically allies will use that "flaw" instantly

it was at that time when "we" also found the flaws about the Churchill ... Shermans ... and how you could kill them with 20mm rounds

[vanapo]

Lol, when halsey said he is killing tigers through the hatch I thought it would be really difficult because he would be coming in from a steep near suicide dive from above. I didn't think he just comes in at a shallow dive and lazersprays 50cals at the the other side of the hatch from which each bullet has to ricochet at least 2 times to hit an ammo rack (there should be no ammo in the turret) and still cooks of the ammo.

That's just bananas and tells you a lot about the ballistics of the 50s in our game and why they perform so much better than any 20mm.

Now I know how I get nose tip oil cooler hits in my 190 all the time. Only 1 of the 50000 50cals per second is bouncing of the armor plate behind the pilot, ricochets towards the cannon on the side, ricochets again from there towards the prop and bounces back  into the oil cooler. Simple as.

Edited January 18, 2022 by vanapo

[Kidd27]

17 hours ago, dm79 said:

Agreed if the AOE is higher  or on a slope, also if it comes in though that hatch how's it miss both other turret crew and hit the driver?

Although it does not appear to be the appropriate angle for rounds to get through the hatch, 3rd person view will be skewed.

Ive killed stugs and tigers with the hatch open strafing. I have not got a kill if buttoned up.

Im confident this is what happened.

It is certainly within this realm of thinking that the round that killed #2 passed through him on its way to ricochet into a bunch of other stuff

[Kidd27]

44 minutes ago, jester said:

Looks like a wtf moment unless there's some new armor leak on the Tiger, which could be possible. Gotta go test it with hatch closed.

i cant get the same result with a closed hatch

[halsey]

I generally come in steeper from the right rear. I usually only kill crew #2 and #3, it's pretty rare for me to pop them like that though it does happen from time to time.

[fidd]

12 minutes ago, vanapo said:

Lol, when halsey said he is killing tigers through the hatch I thought it would be really difficult because he would be coming in from a steep near suicide dive from above. I didn't think he just comes in at a shallow dive and lazersprays 50cals at the the other side of the hatch from which each bullet has to ricochet at least 2 times to hit an ammo rack (there should be no ammo in the turret) and still cooks of the ammo.

That's just bananas and tells you a lot about the ballistics of the 50s in our game and why they perform so much better than any 20mm.

Now I know how I get nose tip oil cooler hits in my 190 all the time. Only 1 of the 50000 50cals per second is bouncing of the armor plate behind the pilot, ricochets towards the cannon on the side, ricochets again from there towards the prop and bounces back  into the oil cooler. Simple as.

What makes you think a 0.50 round would not ricochet twice within an armoured turret? I'd be very surprised if it didn't thrash around multiple times like a demented bee. That said, under the same basis that I opposed P38's looping over the top of PzIV's to fire directly downwards on the roof, I'd be opposed to this occurring if the flight manoeuvre is other than a normal strafing run, to a sensible minimum range, or if the cupola is mis-modelled. From what I've seen of a Tiger's cupola I'd have strong doubts that it's vulnerable to 0.50 rounds.

[vanapo]

11 minutes ago, fidd said:

What makes you think a 0.50 round would not ricochet twice within an armoured turret?

Oh I am pretty sure it does. What do you think the projectile would look like after two ricochets, and how much velocity would it have? And how much penetration power would that deformed mush of metal have when it tumbles  against a steel casing?

Edited January 18, 2022 by vanapo

[dm79]

5 minutes ago, vanapo said:

Oh I am pretty sure it does. What do you think the projectile would look like after two ricochets, and how much velocity would it have? And how much penetration power would that deformed mush of metal have when it tumbles  against a steel casing?

That's why I think it was a direct penetration into the ammo on that side of the tank he hits. One thing did occur to me its fire is so fast when the range gets so small the engine would have to be making a crazy number of pen calculations per millisecond, what happens if one of these is ignored or its can't compute it fast enough?

[dm79]

1 hour ago, jester said:

Looks like a wtf moment unless there's some new armor leak on the Tiger, which could be possible. Gotta go test it with hatch closed.

Wtf moments should not be used to explain possible code or bug issues, its an easy out for someone to use and move on till it happens again. Like wise a player done test is almost impossible we have no test controls able to repeat more than basic steps.

Like I said in another thread the game should be storing the last 3 sorties  of calculations on each client that we can feed back to the rats on things like this,  would save a lot of Allied vs Axis BS when trying to get to the truth. Not that you are doing that btw.

[JAMES10]

5 minutes ago, dm79 said:

what happens if one of these is ignored or its can't compute it fast enough?

Well as far as I'm aware no damage calculation ever get ignored. If they do a CTD is the most likely result.

If the calculations cannot be preformed fast enough the client visibly staggers until the calculation are completed. STO bombs initially showed that behavior.

Cheers.

[KEMPI]

1 hour ago, jester said:

Looks like a wtf moment unless there's some new armor leak on the Tiger, which could be possible. Gotta go test it with hatch closed.

There is no armor leak on the Tiger I checked it recently.

[vanapo]

23 minutes ago, JAMES10 said:

Well as far as I'm aware no damage calculation ever get ignored. If they do a CTD is the most likely result.

It doesn't sound reasonable that "can't compute fast enough, thus I explode" is a likely outcome to anything other than a Star Trek The Original Series computer Kirk engages in a discussion with. If something can't compute, it won't produce any result. No result doesn't lead to a tank blowing up.

The most likely thing from my point of view would be a 20mm hitting the inside of the hatch/cupola and a fragment of that thing blowing up the ammo. I would be very suprised by that outcome as the P38 doesn't fire that much 20mm and the 20mms don't produce a lot of fragments though. But it is possible.

Got no experience with the tigers, but if you got periscopes as flawlessly and indestructable as the allied ones, you might rather rely on those than an open hatch while EA is around with the US-planes being almost completely silent.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by vanapo

[JAMES10]

16 minutes ago, vanapo said:

It doesn't sound reasonable that "can't compute fast enough, thus I explode" is a likely outcome to anything other than a Star Trek The Original Series computer Kirk engages in a discussion with. If something can't compute, it won't produce any result. No result doesn't lead to a tank blowing up.

The most likely thing from my point of view would be a 20mm hitting the inside of the hatch and a fragment of that thing blowing up the ammo. I would be very suprised by that outcome as the P38 doesn't fire that much 20mm and the 20mm don't produce a lot of fragments though. But it is possible.

Got no experience with the tigers, but if you got periscopes as flawlessly and indestructable as the allied ones, you might rather rely on those than an open hatch while EA is around with the US-planes being almost completely silent.

 

Hello vanapo how are you?

While that makes for an interesting story line, I never suggested the target would "just explode". I did indicate the client would be very likely to crash for what ever the reason the calculation was missed. In-game they are very likely to look as if they de-spawned.

Cheers.

Edited January 18, 2022 by JAMES10

[dm79]

1 hour ago, undercova said:

i think i know the reason ... and it is also the reason why a 25mm atg and 2pdr can easily kill a Tiger from flank too. when i look at this video ... it is the exact same reason imo

Me and Saffroli found it many months ago ... and if this gets public the Tiger will be a simple 231 with 88mm gun on it. once i would publish a bug report about it ... you can be sure that magically allies will use that "flaw" instantly

it was at that time when "we" also found the flaws about the Churchill ... Shermans ... and how you could kill them with 20mm rounds

Even if you don't make this public it should go to Xoom so he can get it looked at.

[dm79]

43 minutes ago, JAMES10 said:

Well as far as I'm aware no damage calculation ever get ignored. If they do a CTD is the most likely result.

If the calculations cannot be preformed fast enough the client visibly staggers until the calculation are completed. STO bombs initially showed that behavior.

Cheers.

CC thanks. Whats your guys views on a client side log even if it was the last sortie, can even be locked so we can't look.

[Kidd27]

1 hour ago, undercova said:

i think i know the reason ... and it is also the reason why a 25mm atg and 2pdr can easily kill a Tiger from flank too. when i look at this video ... it is the exact same reason imo

Me and Saffroli found it many months ago ... and if this gets public the Tiger will be a simple 231 with 88mm gun on it. once i would publish a bug report about it ... you can be sure that magically allies will use that "flaw" instantly

it was at that time when "we" also found the flaws about the Churchill ... Shermans ... and how you could kill them with 20mm rounds

Let me make sure i understand....

through some testing, you have found a repeatable bug.

and you didnt bring this to the attention of CRS?

[madrebel]

1 hour ago, fidd said:

What makes you think a 0.50 round would not ricochet twice within an armoured turret?

physics

[vanapo]

53 minutes ago, JAMES10 said:

I never suggested the target would "just explode". I did indicate the client would be very likely to crash for what ever the reason the calculation was missed. In-game they are very likely to look as if they de-spawned

Hey James Ten Kirk! This was rather a reply to DM79s question.

I just like the idea of shooting enough MG bullets at a tank so our CRS supercomputer just can't compute the damage anymore, gives up and simply explodes the tank for that reason :-D

 

[Dre21]

So the plane flies over the Tiger as it blows up ( you know ammo going off all sorts of crap flying ),yet the pilot stays uninjured? 

[undercova]

44 minutes ago, Kidd27 said:

Let me make sure i understand....

through some testing, you have found a repeatable bug.

and you didnt bring this to the attention of CRS?

we told ppl on forum there is a bug with 20mm rounds being able to kill several medium and heavy tanks

after a few days it got fixed

 

but when problems with axis equipment popped up ... the "reaction" time was massively slower. weeks or months.

also ... still remember the Bren UC gunner bug ?? immortal gunner. they have chosen to keep the unit ingame for almost a week ... instead of removing the unit from spawn list. AN IMMORTAL GUNNER !!!!!!

[TMAN]

We monitored use of the immortal gunner on the UC and kicked any player seen using the exploit.  We reduced the supply numbers by 80%.  We just tried to keep the unit in game because it was new and people wanted to try it out and we knew the hotfix was ready for next hotfix.

[fidd]

3 hours ago, vanapo said:

Oh I am pretty sure it does. What do you think the projectile would look like after two ricochets, and how much velocity would it have? And how much penetration power would that deformed mush of metal have when it tumbles  against a steel casing?

I think the shape of it makes not a whit of difference to the number of ricochets within a small area, other than some of the energy being lost due to deformation/heat/sound on each impact. Hell I could thrown in a ball that'd ricochet more than twice. Bullets have rather more energy, (it says here).

[Kidd27]

56 minutes ago, undercova said:

we told ppl on forum there is a bug with 20mm rounds being able to kill several medium and heavy tanks

after a few days it got fixed

 

but when problems with axis equipment popped up ... the "reaction" time was massively slower. weeks or months.

also ... still remember the Bren UC gunner bug ?? immortal gunner. they have chosen to keep the unit ingame for almost a week ... instead of removing the unit from spawn list. AN IMMORTAL GUNNER !!!!!!

you didnt answer my question.

You have identified a repeatable bug and havent or have notified CRS?

[jester]

2 hours ago, KEMPI said:

There is no armor leak on the Tiger I checked it recently.

Perhaps not according to undercova post above, interested to see reply to Kidd if it had been reported. Not that your word isn't good, but this game is funky in the ways it breaks, we have seen this exact scenario unfold in the past particularly with armored units. Church VII was reported fine for a while until finally the track armor leak which appeared randomly in a patch was identified and corrected.