Infantry lag kills issues in town #4669

[matamor]

That's why we can't have nice things.

We didn't had that problem during 1.30. Why now everyone as it Branko? It's just a question to rats, we still wait for a fix or at least an answer on that major issue.

[branko]

I'm not saying it's better or worse than 1.30 - I agree with the poster above who said it is "different".

I had simu-kills galore in 1.30, just like I now do in 1.31.

The difference I notice is the "Mr Ben Effect", where an ei will magically appear from "around a corner" - on my machine - and my death packet arrive at my machine at that same moment.

I know what causes that (well, I''m pretty sure), it's the predictor code. I'm pretty sure because you can game it ... by moving unpredictably.

But Romz isn't describing anyone appearing around any corners. He is just describing good old fashion lag. And we have had that in every version of the game since I first got here.

And everything is a factor in good old fashioned lag. From the procesing speed of your PC, to the speed of your connection to your ISP, to the speed of the connection from your ISP to the server, to the speed of the connection from the server to your opponent's ISP, to the speed of your opponent's connection to his ISP and to the processing speed of his PC.

People are talking about two different things. Traditional lag, which is unavoidable in a Wide-Area-Network-Game and the "Mr Ben Effect", which - it seems certain - is down to the revised predictor code.

And the revised predictor code is a choice between the old style warping (which everyone hated) and the new style Mr Ben popups. Personally, I'd sooner stay with the new version - and put up with Mr Ben - but it seems other people would not.

Edited August 30, 2010 by branko

[matamor]

Exactly Branko, I totally agree with your post. Warping all over wasn't fun with all these zigzaggers. That thing now fixes, my only concern now is "How can we keep our new players into the game". They want to take a rifle or a smg and go rambo.

If you clearly die behind that wall after a 1000ms-1200ms, that isn't going to give a good impression on the cqb battles despites everything else that the game has to offer to his infantry players.

[branko]

I think the "shot me when I was behind a wall" is traditional lag.

If you look, there are only a handful of posts on here that describe that, from the thousands of deaths every day.

The Mr Ben issue is a real one, because it is so obvious. But, like I wrote, if it is a choice between the warping dolphins of 1.30 and Mr Ben of 1.31, I'll take Mr Ben. Sure, it would be nice to get somewhere between the two, but only the RATS know if they can tune their predictor code that fine.

As for lag kills - After playing Team Fortress back in the 90s, I'm use to it. It is the price you pay for playing networked games (especially FPS networked games). Some - small servers - deal with it by restricting ping-times to certain brackets, but this game can't do that.

And, even with ping restrictions, you still have PC processing times to consider.

Basically, if new players do not want to put up with lag kills, then they won't be playing an FPS MMO.

Edited August 30, 2010 by branko

[matamor]

I know the incidence of the packets, especially the ACK ones, the most important ones saying that the client is alive and totally acknowledged packets sent and delivered.

A normal player ping is approximativelly 100-200ms, could be lower or higher. Mine turns around 85 in game.

Same for your opponent. Let say he has 100ms and live in BC.

If I die that 1 second after, its 1000ms later right? If my opponent shoots, I could receive his packet 1000ms after.

Now the bottleneck. There is 600-800ms approx missing. It's huge. Client answers were actually taking in counts and reduced from that 1000-1200ms. Rats server handle packets retransmission to every clients. That is where the bottleneck is. Maybe bad packets, maybe packets arrives before the first one, all these errors can be monitored but client agents and server agent have to be properly installed in order to track errors.

[delems]

The simple point is nothing changed on my side (same fast computer, good connection, good FPS) but the new version, and now infantry combat close (i.e. mostly in CPs/bunkers) is much worse.

The combat outside of CPs is also probably worse, but far less noticeable cause you don't care when he dies when he is 70 m away from you dying. You probably shot and he didn't even see you.

Where it matters (and is very noticeable) is up close, like in buildings. That's usually the exactly time that speed counts and that 1/4 second advantage is supposed to mean life or death.

Now, there is no 1/4 sec advantage (or if there is, it is to the attacker somehow invisibly running through the building -- exactly opposite of who should have the advantage)

I can see 2 pings each at 100 taking a 1/4 second to resolve; or in a more worse case 2 pings at 200 taking 1/2 second to resolve, but there are times I'm quite sure it is a full second later I see things happening or hear screams. It is sometimes almost errie (sp) or freaky how long the lag is on occasions.

[xenon84]

[MOTORMOUTH]

Nothing to report other than staff are aware of this thread and discussing it.

[matamor]

Nothing to report other than staff are aware of this thread and discussing it.

Greatly appreciated, thx MM!

[matamor]

bump, its the price that you have to pay in order to play infantry cqb's for spawnables and bunkers in this game!

http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/showthread.php?t=338267

[Nick]

Happened to me again today, capping a cp from the cupboard, I hear ei footsteps, I die, then I see him run into the cupboard...grrrrrr

I must try to get a recording of this, it's so frustrating.

Have any rats actually experienced it?

[munchkin]

This happens all the time, more often than not really.

Standing guarding the stair in a cp, I see the head of the ei coming up, then I die only to see him run up with his back towards me, turn around and fire...

Only time it doesn't happen like this is if I keep moving around myself, something that's really hard to do when you're trying to guard something.

[matamor]

[trenchfoot]

1/4 second? I've watched ghost muzzle flashes floating in the air wander around corners by themselves, kill me. Several seconds later as my third person death animation plays I see them walk in. It's ridiculous.

This comes and goes. However, when it does happen it erases any desire I have to play the game.

Guess I'll go read a book.

[Nick]

I went on the training server using 2 PC's, each with a ping of around 160, I was able to replicate the exact problem we are talking about in this thread, I managed to make a couple of videos, sorry about the very poor quality but I only had a very very cheap camera to record it on.

The problem is not actually lag it is to do with the predictor code, CRS should test this themselves and they will see what causes it.

In the first video I die and the camera switches to death cam before I even see my killer.

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In the 2nd I briefly see my attacker but die before I have a chance to kill him.

DYCTYSu9pMY

[matamor]

Exactly that ^^^^

Very nice work n1ckm and thanks!

PS : get Fraps, screen capture while gaming, it's free. http://download.cnet.com/Fraps/3000-18541_4-10316793.html

Edited September 10, 2010 by matamor

[romzburg]

I went on the training server using 2 PC's, each with a ping of around 160, I was able to replicate the exact problem we are talking about in this thread, I managed to make a couple of videos, sorry about the very poor quality but I only had a very very cheap camera to record it on.

The problem is not actually lag it is to do with the predictor code, CRS should test this themselves and they will see what causes it.

In the first video I die and the camera switches to death cam before I even see my killer.

In the 2nd I briefly see my attacker but die before I have a chance to kill him.

Yeah, the change was 1.30 to 1.31, and there was no news about the laws of physics changing at that exact instant, so we know it's CRS' code, and nothing to do with ping, internet latency, etc.

They wanted smooth out the movement of avatars who would do the zig-zag dance, warping all over as they ran across a field.

So instead of having your computer's client game code take a players' x,y,z position packet plus direction/speed vector update and have your computer immediately render him at that spot and moving in that direction, (causing a warp if there was a significant change from the *previous* packet), they have your computer's client code smoothly transition that player from wherever your computer shows him to the new packet's info.

Which means if he changes direction and speed quickly, he will get into your closet while your computer is still in the process of making him move smoothly through the other room.

This is a problem only for infantry, because only infantry can change *relative* direction/speed (vector) fast enough to take advantage of the code's time-wasting movement smoothing.

We need more, more, more x,y,z/vector packets so our computers are rendering the other players with more specific points more often.

It's like drawing a curve using straight line segments. The more little end-points you define, the smoother the curve.

Currently the code looks at the latest x,y,z/vector info and says "How did he get to this point from the last one? Let me draw a nice path for that."

If you do that calculation a lot more often, you have a lot more fidelity with the player's position, and so you reduce lag.

____________________

motormouth:

Much as Romzy's posting style can give me headaches (and the fact that he's "NEVAR WRONG!!"), that post pretty much nails it on the head.

sgtchief:

romz you['re] my damn hero

sydney:

Ya know, at first Romsburg, you rubbed me the wrong way and I wasn't a fan. But over the past 12 months, you have really grown on me. You're precise, well spoken and although you are sometimes a little harsh, you are most often correct and in proper context with your responses.

irelandeb:

indeed he's one of the few voices of common sense on these forums

pete, linc & julie:

I can't say [any]thing else [than] that the ban was justified considering that you have an 'impressive' TOS history....

owilde:

The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about.

[weiker]

I don't defend from inside bunkers any more. Better to hide nearby and run in after the ei to kill them.

And I might be upstairs in a depot cp, but I start moving as soon as I hear the enemy downstairs. That way we're both moving and on an equal footing.

I get killed by infantry in the field that I should have heard coming, but because my client didn't know they were near, there were never any footfalls... it's all garbage.

And no one says anything. It's all 'PPOs!' 'Bailout!' 'Give us $20!'

I could be excited about that stuff, but there's a major problem going on here. Been going on here. Still going on here.

*grumbles something about lipstick and a pig*

- Weiker

[Nick]

And no one says anything. It's all 'PPOs!' 'Bailout!' 'Give us $20!'

I could be excited about that stuff, but there's a major problem going on here. Been going on here. Still going on here.

Couldn't agree more about that, yes updates are nice but I'd like to see CRS going all out to fix the major bugs that we have to put up with.

[matamor]

asian bump

[trenchfoot]

Hadn't played since my last post in this thread. Logged on tonight, spawned an lmg, got in a truck, rode to a cp to recap, walked into the cp, stood for roughly 20 seconds, bullets bullets bullets, no ei visible (of course until the death animation).

I give up.

[Nick]

This needs to be fixed, I'm sure some players have figured out how to exploit this now, please CRS...

[weiker]

This needs to be fixed' date=' I'm sure some players have figured out how to exploit this now, please CRS...[/quote']

I agree, but I wouldn't use the word exploit. No doubt some players are happy as clams with the situation and would exploit other such bugs if they could. But everyone else is just playing the game. We can't even run into a room with ei without having this happen. What are we supposed to do? Not shoot them? We can't knock on the door first and ask if they are ready.

CRS directive 451-c - September 17' date=' 2010[/b']

'All players will immediately be informed of new rules of engagement, by SYSTEM messages, HC .axis/.allied, website article, and forum notices.

As of 18:00 hours today:

1. A three second rule is in effect before engagement between infantry avatars may commence. Players are forbidden to fire upon an enemy after spotting them until three seconds have passed. ('count thou not four, nor two, except that thou immediately proceedest to three...')

2. Infantry wishing to enter a CP building which is contested or may become contested are required to come to a halt outside the doorway and fire at least one round into the air. After a period of three seconds has elapsed, the infantry may then enter the building and engage enemy forces.

3. Infantry wishing to enter an enemy bunker building must find a singing bush in the desert and recite the appended verse before firing their weapon in the air (that's in the air, knuckledraggers, not along the ground...)

These rules will be strictly enforced. Non compliance will result in Motormouth's ban-hammer being dropped on the offender from the height of Bilton's ego. Alternatively, the offender's access to the sheep care and maternity facility may be suspended for a period of two weeks.

...

- Weiker

[Nick]

I agree, but I wouldn't use the word exploit. No doubt some players are happy as clams with the situation and would exploit other such bugs if they could. But everyone else is just playing the game. We can't even run into a room with ei without having this happen. What are we supposed to do? Not shoot them? We can't knock on the door first and ask if they are ready.

I think it is an exploit because if you run straight into a room you don't get this effect, you just get good old lag but to get the effect I tried to record in the movie's above is caused by certain movements by the infantry and I feel some people have realised this and are exploiting it.

[twig]

Great work n1ckm, exactly what was needed!

I just read the latest production update . . . no mention of fixing this problem.

Does anybody really want more features until this core issue is fixed? What's the point of adding more eye candy when an issue this important needs to be resolved?

This is a long thread with many people confirming the problem and the impact on gameplay. It has remained civil and respectful as far as I can tell. Yet, the only official acknowledgement from CRS has been "Nothing to report other than staff are aware of this thread and discussing it."

I've been with this game since day one, as many of you have and I currently have three active accounts. In my opinion, the players deserve a better response to this problem.

Regards,

Twig